NeedToJump 0 #1 October 1, 2003 I was wonder what rules/laws apply to landing off in an emergency situation (in the USA.) I searched these forums and FAR section 105 and could not find what I was looking for. I remember hearing that according to the FAA you can land absolutely anywhere you want in an emergency situation. I was told something about skydivers who landed off (legitimately) in NASA property near the space shuttle and even though they were questioned, the landing was determined to be perfectly legal according to the FAA. Does anyone know about this and could you point me to an appropriate FAR section?Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lazyfrog 0 #2 October 1, 2003 planning an emergency landing anywhere ??? if it's close to Fort Knox, bring me back a souvenir if it's close to CIA HQ, pls don't forget to delete my files---------- Fumer tue, péter pue ------------- ourson #10, Mosquito Uno, CBT 579 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #3 October 1, 2003 Quoteplanning an emergency landing anywhere ??? LOL No I'm not planning one, I was just curious since I've "heard" about the rules but would like to see where they are official. But if I do happen to land in either of those places ever I'll see what I can do for you... Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #4 October 1, 2003 Don't be surprised if you land off in a less then ideal area, especially one with fences and guys with guns, that you get detained for a bit while they figure out what the hell is going on. Also, it would be a good idea that if you jump near something like that, that you carry your Driver's Licesnse, Military ID or something to that nature. Do it once and you'll probably be ok, do it twice and now it could be made into a tresspassing offense. Oh, I'm not just talking out of my ass on this one, btw, BUT I have an agreement not to discuss the details (that's for those of you that know the story too).--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #5 October 1, 2003 The pilot in command may violate any FAR's he has to to meet the needs of an in-flight emergency. He may get into trouble for allowing the emergency to happen in the first place, but he won't be second-guessed when (for example) he loses power over LAX, declares an emergency and tells them he's landing there. From the FAR's: Sec. 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command. (a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft. (b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency. (c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #6 October 1, 2003 Quote(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency. Bill, does the term "pilot" refer to skydivers as well or just someone who is flying an aircraft? Obviously if I was faced with a situation where this could be applicable I would just find a safe place to land and sort it out later.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harksaw 0 #7 October 1, 2003 I know this wasn't your question, but if its an emergency, I sure don't care whose property I land on. Trespassing is the least of worries. if it was private property, i dont think you would be out of responsibility of any trespassing.__________________________________________________ I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #8 October 1, 2003 QuoteI know this wasn't your question, but if its an emergency, I sure don't care whose property I land on. Trespassing is the least of worries. Agreed. As I said, I'm just curious as to what the official rules are.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #9 October 1, 2003 If you are forced to land on government property during these years of unmitigated panic over homeland security, I'm sure you will be posthumously cleared of any wrongdoing. First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #10 October 1, 2003 QuoteIf you are forced to land on government property during these years of unmitigated panic over homeland security, I'm sure you will be posthumously cleared of any wrongdoing. LOL Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #11 October 1, 2003 I think it all depends on the emergency situation and where you're landing. I don't believe there's any single rule that'll get you out of any situation. Land on the whitehouse lawn and you'll probably go to prison (at best), no matter why you landed there. A parachute malfunction doesn't qualify as an aircraft emergency. On the other hand if you bail out of a plane in an emergency, you're going to get away with landing almost anywhere. But for the most part, off landings aren't FAR violations, so no FAR is going to allow you to break tresspassing rules. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #12 October 1, 2003 Quote Bill, does the term "pilot" refer to skydivers as well or just someone who is flying an aircraft? Obviously if I was faced with a situation where this could be applicable I would just find a safe place to land and sort it out later. FAR 91.3 is going to cover anyone in an emergency with a pilot certificate from the FAA. For general skydivers or passengers on-board aircraft during parachute operations in an emergency, they would be covered by FAR 105.1(b)(1). Quote §105.1 Applicability. (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, this part prescribes rules governing parachute operations conducted in the United States. (b) This part does not apply to a parachute operation conducted -- (1) In response to an in-flight emergency, or quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #13 October 1, 2003 OK, so if something happens in the plane and you have to leave then you are covered but what about if you leave and realize the spot is bad or the winds change and you can't make it to your intended landing area? Are there even any rules covering these circumstances?Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #14 October 1, 2003 Quote . . . and realize the spot is bad or the winds change and you can't make it to your intended landing area? Same rule applies. Weather can count as a legitimate in-flight emergency if it's unforecast and rapidly changing. Don't abuse it to punch clouds though, 'cause that ain't gonna fly. Nobody is going to care if you land on a golf course rather than an alligator infested swamp because of a bad spot. Well, maybe the greens keeper if you don't replace your divot or farmer McNasty if you ruin too many of his crops, but it's not anything that the FAA will care about. At that point, it's a civil issue of tresspassing. I'd also suggest you don't "press" the issue just to try to do something a little funky like an unauthorized demo, because they're just not going to buy it, but in a legitimate emergency nobody is going to care as long as nobody goes to the hospital or morgue and nothing gets intentionally damaged.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #15 October 1, 2003 OK, thanks for the info Quade. Like I said, I'm not planning on landing somewhere I can't and claiming it was an emergency landing, just curious about what I've "heard" from people. As for demos I'm planning on waiting until I get a PRO rating and keeping the whole thing very legal and official.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #16 October 1, 2003 I think you are missing a point here. Be it the FAA or not, they govern aviation operations that operate in the public (and restricted) airspace. They have nothing to do with the surface unless is happens to be at an airport. You get into criminal and civil law upon landing in let's say "farmer nasty's" front yard. Be it in an aircraft or under a parachute. You must look at and consider the legal aspect, trespass, and the civil aspect, death or damage to the landowner or his property. Just because you fly or skydive does not give you the authority to declare an emergency and break another law. The quotes concerning PIC's is for Federal Aviation Regulations, not criminal or civil law. So, yes you could be arrested for trespass or sued in civil court for damages, physical or mental! If American Airlines crashes into your home don't you think you would consider a law suit??????? Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #17 October 1, 2003 QuoteYou must look at and consider the legal aspect, trespass, and the civil aspect, death or damage to the landowner or his property. I can understand and would expect to be held liable to any physical damage done in an off-field landing. I guess my question then is more the trespassing aspect of it or landing in a restricted area. If it is a true emergency landing and it is the first time you or any other skydiver has landed there could you still be charged with trespassing?Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #18 October 1, 2003 Yes, Depending upon the land owner, local law, and civil law. I would hope that with some very considerate discussion and the novelty of a skydiver landing in your front yard, everyone would smile and go on their merry way however, walk across the road, climb the fence, drop in from the sky, trespass is trespass. Sorry, just the facts. Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DBCOOPER 5 #19 October 1, 2003 Dude, you should really should have posted this in the base jumping forum.They pretty much know all the rules.Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #20 October 1, 2003 Yeah If I don't believe you, just ask them..................James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #21 October 1, 2003 Kinda guess that's why I wrote this paragraph. Quote Nobody is going to care if you land on a golf course rather than an alligator infested swamp because of a bad spot. Well, maybe the greens keeper if you don't replace your divot or farmer McNasty if you ruin too many of his crops, but it's not anything that the FAA will care about. At that point, it's a civil issue of tresspassing. quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #22 October 1, 2003 OK thanks for the info guys.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #23 October 2, 2003 Quote You get into criminal and civil law upon landing in let's say "farmer nasty's" front yard. Sure, but keep breaking it down. In order for first degree criminal tresspass, there must be intent. If somebody crashes their car into somebody's livingroom, it's not tresspassing because there was no intent. Likewise, we don't intend to crash our planes or land off. It would be very dificult for mcNasty to succesfully prosecute for 1st degree criminal tresspass. There is also 3rd degree or misdemeanor tresspass, and this is a posibility. There is usually a requirement that it be communicated that tresspassing is not allowed... this is usually done through a "no tresspassing" sign. Of course, we're not going to see that sign when landing, so the sign is meaningless. It would be problematic if McNasty communicated to the DZ and the jumpers beforehand "do not land on my land". But generally, it seems that if it hasn't been specifically communicated to you, it's not misdemeanor tresspassing, either. Damage to his crops are a whole other ballgame, but this is exactly why our USPA memebership carries 3rd party liability insurance. This issue will rear its ugly head if that goes away, but currently is not a problem. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sasteam 0 #24 October 3, 2003 I hear Area 51 has very tight security. An entrance from above is probably the only way to penetrate the facility. Hmm... an extreme altitude jump with an emergency landing. Yeah, that sounds right to me. Just make sure the camera is small enough to fit in... well, some orifice. Little brown men? I thought they were little green men. Something must have happened to the film!Crazy Ivan and the Crew (2005-2006) Team Insane (2004-2005) Insane in the Airplane (2003-2004) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #25 October 3, 2003 Area 51 has tight security? True dat. quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
