Push 0 #51 September 24, 2003 QuoteThis lady I know, she's a newbie and when she's about to exit, she has the nerve to tell everyone on the load HOW MUCH TIME they have to give her, she goes like: After I jump YOU wait 6 or 8 secs ok? When I just started jumping from an Otter I used to remind people behind me about exit separation. I think I got some folks annoyed, but it's my ass, not theirs, so f*ck them. With people still using things like the 45 degree rule, you can't be too careful. I've heard "why are you counting, just look at the angle!" so many times, from people with hundreds and thousands of jumps, that I don't trust anyone anymore. Who came up with that idiotic 45 rule anyway? Not to sound like I'm some superexperienced skydiver here, but it makes no sense at all! In fact, it's counter-productive! It doesn't give you more separation when the winds are higher! It's like saying "look for the big orange flying elephant before you exit". I want to try CReW some day, but if I do, I want to do it with people that at least exited in the same group as me. Unexpected stacks are not fun, and yes, I am talking from experience unfortunately. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #52 September 24, 2003 JP... THANK YOU!!! It made me tonight. Whats better is a 240 pound student (damn me being light) making you stand up in an Otter (I'm 6'2", do the math there) only to have to move them around and try to sit down for a go around. Then since you are closer to the door the Student has the whole go around to have the door monster hit them and then its really fun to get them up and out the door The Freefliers in question can also be the ones that take about 10 seconds twisting and contorting their bodies to try and launch complete formations, only to have them tumble out the door time after time. Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #53 September 24, 2003 Quote[i was actually "taught" was to watch the group ahead of you ...if I counted six seconds and someone was right below the plane, I would wait longer reply] I've seen this too and it seems ok, but it's the same as the 45 rule (a little better) or still like counting your fingers (great example). They are in the same relative wind as the airplane and unless they are zoomie, will fall away the same way every time. What you are seeing is an illusion. Gravity is not a variable here and relative to the airplane, neither is wind speed. Same answer - check your penetration on jump run relative to the PLANET (look at the ground speed). If you aren't moving fast across the ground, wait longer. It's easy, on jump run, just look out the window (down) and see how the earth is moving past the edge of the window/door/etc. The better way to calculate exit separation using the winds aloft and take into account the different layers of wind ends up being goofy as the winds change and every jump run is different. But it can be used for a general feel. What matters is the airplane's progress against the ground, not the wind. Missing this little detail is where all these stupid little rules came from. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,026 #54 September 24, 2003 Quote I guess i didnt really look at the actual 45 angle but if I counted six seconds and someone was right below the plane, I would wait longer (which is something I was told to do by quite a few people). I would be truly impressed if someone was right below the plane 6 seconds after exit.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,026 #55 September 24, 2003 Quote What matters is the airplane's progress against the ground, not the wind. Missing this little detail is where all these stupid little rules came from. That would be true if you deployed on the ground. If you want good separation from someone at the altitude at which you open, what matters is the airplane's progress against the air at that altitude.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 4 #56 September 24, 2003 Just to reinforce, John is talking about the air at deployment altitude. Which, um, is a little difficult to actually see, so it requires knowing quite a bit more than simply "the uppers".quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #57 September 24, 2003 QuoteQuoteThat would be true if you deployed on the ground. If you want good separation from someone at the altitude at which you open, what matters is the airplane's progress against the air at that altitude. I'll take that as true (actually, it's perfect), but not practical, (from the airplane on jump run) you can't see how fast the wind is blowing at 2000 ft. The short of it is some people grasp relative reference frames and some don't. Those that don't need a simple rule of thumb. They know who they are (or do they?). But will you accept that it makes more sense to gage delays by watching the ground speed rather than the previous group? That's my point. (and in that same e-mail, I agree with you that best case is to always set up delays by looking at the winds aloft in the layers - it just doesn't help if you want an easy rule for the newbies to use on jump run.) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jsaxton 0 #58 September 24, 2003 Tell her to fuck off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Harksaw 0 #59 September 24, 2003 I was with two of my friends at a drop zone a couple weeks ago and some other ppl were doing four-way competitions. For the first three loads we were told to get off first, so we did. Next load, some guy on the way up starts yelling at us for getting on in that position, and wants us on after all the other belly flyers (Where I had originally expected to be placed) in a very condecending way. He then tells everyone on the plane that there are too many groups and each group should leave three (yes 3!) seconds of space between groups so everyone can get off in time. He then tells us we have to sit on the floor of the casa (Don't the first off usually sit on the floor?) I guess because we look the youngest.__________________________________________________ I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,989 #60 September 24, 2003 >you can't see how fast the wind is blowing at 2000 ft. True; however, you _can_ get an upper-winds report that tells you wind at 3000 feet, and it's generally a safe bet that the winds at 2000 feet are a similar direction as the winds on jump run, but much lighter. >But will you accept that it makes more sense to gage delays by >watching the ground speed rather than the previous group? That's a pretty reasonable method that only fails under unusual circumstances, like winds at 2000 feet are strong but _opposite_ of those at jump run altitudes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamsville 0 #61 September 24, 2003 Just remember that those with the loudest mouths and the shortest etiquette often come up short when commanding others' respect. It sounds like there was a disconnect in communications somewhere. Being right (if you are in fact right) is not all you need to get a point across. BTW, it seems that my thread on jumpers' behavior has spawned quite a lively discussion on exit separation. Even got Professor Kallend and Diverdriver involved! |I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane. Harry, FB #4143 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cloud9 0 #62 September 24, 2003 Oh, the nerve of some skydivers!! I know what you mean, on the forums i visit a skydiver started a thread just to gossip about other skydivers. How cool is that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Keith 0 #63 September 24, 2003 Just curious, who taught your FJC and who were your JM's?Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydivelynn 1 #64 September 25, 2003 QuoteI was with two of my friends at a drop zone a couple weeks ago and some other ppl were doing four-way competitions. For the first three loads we were told to get off first, so we did. Next load, some guy on the way up starts yelling at us for getting on in that position, and wants us on after all the other belly flyers (Where I had originally expected to be placed) in a very condecending way. He then tells everyone on the plane that there are too many groups and each group should leave three (yes 3!) seconds of space between groups so everyone can get off in time. He then tells us we have to sit on the floor of the casa (Don't the first off usually sit on the floor?) I guess because we look the youngest. Possibly on the first couple loads your groups were bigger than 4-ways? I was there and am trying to remember. There was confusion on several loads as to how many passes there should be. Meets get like that sometimes. As for sitting on the floor, people sit the whole length of the casa on the floor when its a full load. People exiting in the last groups sit on the floor in the back, people exiting in the first groups sit on the floor towards the door. Has nothing to do with age :) Yelling happens when the props are turning and everyone is disorganized and jumpers are not sitting down. Yelling also happens on jump run when jumpers are full of adrenaline. I'm not excusing it but don't take it personally. Length of separation (eg 3 sec) comes from the pilot. Realistically I don't think any of us actually made 3 seconds (especially us 4-ways teams) but the point was to keep it moving, probably because of what the winds (uppers) were doing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,989 #65 September 25, 2003 >Length of separation (eg 3 sec) comes from the pilot. ??? I've never been on a load where a pilot told the jumpers how long to leave between exits. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #66 September 25, 2003 >I've never been on a load where a pilot told the jumpers how long to leave between exits. Every one of Mullins King Air loads he tells you how long to give. I'm lucky enough to have pilots that fly for me that all have 1500+ jumps and tell the jumpers in terms that they understand like 4 seconds or 8 seconds not the uppers speed Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydivelynn 1 #67 September 25, 2003 Quote??? I've never been on a load where a pilot told the jumpers how long to leave between exits. Maybe its a dropzone-specific thing. At this particular meet (chester, sc) the plane/pilot was one from the dz I normally jump at (css), and that's how it works there too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites redshift 0 #68 September 25, 2003 QuoteEvery one of Mullins King Air loads he tells you how long to give. I'm lucky enough to have pilots that fly for me that all have 1500+ jumps and tell the jumpers in terms that they understand like 4 seconds or 8 seconds not the uppers speed Now, I'd like THAT. I've read "Another Look at Descent Kinematics" 2 or 3 times, and I get it, but I'm just not going to be able to calculate optimal separation delay while on jump run. Even if I could, I don't always know the current uppers speed, I'm not spotting so I can't look out to estimate the ground speed, and I don't know exactly what those exiting before me are really going to do in freefall. Therefore, I need either 1) a good spotter who knows the exit order (preferred and actual), knows the uppers speed, is capable of figuring the optimal separation, and is willing to communicate it to the jumpers on the load; or 2) a rule of thumb that works. I suspect the difficulty of getting the former results in dubious instances of the latter (i.e. the 45-degree or 8-second rule). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #69 September 25, 2003 QuoteAfter I jump YOU wait 6 or 8 secs ok? I don't see the problem with this. Nothing wrong with good horizontal seperation, although in my opinion it would take more than 6 seconds - unless the runin was downwind or the kite quick.(like a King Air.) tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites trumpetfish 0 #70 September 25, 2003 As a low time jumper this issue of seperation time and exit order I find quite worrying. (particularly after reading this thread - there seems to be quite a bit of confusion?) To someone who is new to the sport, there seem to be a lot of factors involved in 'calculating' the exit order and timings. so sometimes we can't help but put trust in the more expereinced jumpers on a load. Spotting is part of the USPA A card but I think there should be more emphasis put on this stuff. i was shown the principles of spotting and about leaving 'at least' 5 secs between groups, but never touched on different skydive disciplines and how it affects exit order etc.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Newbie 0 #71 September 25, 2003 QuoteI have one: This lady I know, she's a newbie and when she's about to exit, she has the nerve to tell everyone on the load HOW MUCH TIME they have to give her, she goes like: After I jump YOU wait 6 or 8 secs ok?, I don't know about telling the entire load, but i normally will tell the person/group after me/us if i think they need to know (i'm a newbie too, but i'd rather tell someone who i haven't seen before at the dz, or someone with not that much more (or even less) experience than myself). I'm not saying everyone should do it, but all you have to do is ask "experienced" jumpers at the drop zone on how long they are leaving for separation on the previous load to be greeted with the astonishing "wait till the group/jumper out before you is at 45 degrees" to realise that even those with 1000s of jumps still use a method for separation that guarantees nothing. I'd rather have someone roll their eyes, and give a sarcastic response to me politely and cheerfully reminding them - with a smile - about distance and/or time to leave for separation, then have the threat of collisions and compromising safety for the sake of some pride and/or the assumption people on the load all are up to speed on something as basic as leaving adequate separation. I'm sure the newbie you are talking about is taking it a little too far telling the entire load, but newbies reading this should not feel like they can't tell people what to leave separation wise if they feel they need to. Peace of mind on exit is all too important for a good, safe jump so do what you feel you need to do to be happy mentally before exit is what i'm saying, especially if the guy/girl going out after you is doing some freeflying and "only has 10 sit jumps and a few attempts at headdown!!". You get the idea. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TrickyDicky 0 #72 September 25, 2003 At our DZ generally leave at least 5s between groups, but if we hear "The uppers are really blowing" from the pilot, we leave it a little longer. Easy. UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ScottishJohn 25 #73 September 25, 2003 QuoteI informed her that I was already manifested and involved in a 3-way. She told me that I should take myself off of manifest so that she could jump. Any thoughts on that? Yeah, tell her to go F*ck herself.---------------------------------------------------------------------- If you think my attitude stinks you should smell my fingers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,026 #74 September 25, 2003 QuoteAs a low time jumper this issue of seperation time and exit order I find quite worrying. (particularly after reading this thread - there seems to be quite a bit of confusion?) To someone who is new to the sport, there seem to be a lot of factors involved in 'calculating' the exit order and timings. so sometimes we can't help but put trust in the more expereinced jumpers on a load. Spotting is part of the USPA A card but I think there should be more emphasis put on this stuff. i was shown the principles of spotting and about leaving 'at least' 5 secs between groups, but never touched on different skydive disciplines and how it affects exit order etc.. Did you take a look at the stuff on my web site? www.iit.edu/~kallend You can work out a lot of this stuff ahead of time for a specific jump plane (some fly jumprun a lot faster than others). Don't let anyone hurry you up. If the uppers are strong so you need extra time between groups, you also have more time to get all the groups out with a satisfactory spot.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sssbc99 0 #75 September 25, 2003 QuoteBTW, it seems that my thread on jumpers' behavior has spawned quite a lively discussion on exit separation. Even got Professor Kallend and Diverdriver involved! | I will take the blame for that Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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kallend 2,026 #54 September 24, 2003 Quote I guess i didnt really look at the actual 45 angle but if I counted six seconds and someone was right below the plane, I would wait longer (which is something I was told to do by quite a few people). I would be truly impressed if someone was right below the plane 6 seconds after exit.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #55 September 24, 2003 Quote What matters is the airplane's progress against the ground, not the wind. Missing this little detail is where all these stupid little rules came from. That would be true if you deployed on the ground. If you want good separation from someone at the altitude at which you open, what matters is the airplane's progress against the air at that altitude.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #56 September 24, 2003 Just to reinforce, John is talking about the air at deployment altitude. Which, um, is a little difficult to actually see, so it requires knowing quite a bit more than simply "the uppers".quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #57 September 24, 2003 QuoteQuoteThat would be true if you deployed on the ground. If you want good separation from someone at the altitude at which you open, what matters is the airplane's progress against the air at that altitude. I'll take that as true (actually, it's perfect), but not practical, (from the airplane on jump run) you can't see how fast the wind is blowing at 2000 ft. The short of it is some people grasp relative reference frames and some don't. Those that don't need a simple rule of thumb. They know who they are (or do they?). But will you accept that it makes more sense to gage delays by watching the ground speed rather than the previous group? That's my point. (and in that same e-mail, I agree with you that best case is to always set up delays by looking at the winds aloft in the layers - it just doesn't help if you want an easy rule for the newbies to use on jump run.) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jsaxton 0 #58 September 24, 2003 Tell her to fuck off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Harksaw 0 #59 September 24, 2003 I was with two of my friends at a drop zone a couple weeks ago and some other ppl were doing four-way competitions. For the first three loads we were told to get off first, so we did. Next load, some guy on the way up starts yelling at us for getting on in that position, and wants us on after all the other belly flyers (Where I had originally expected to be placed) in a very condecending way. He then tells everyone on the plane that there are too many groups and each group should leave three (yes 3!) seconds of space between groups so everyone can get off in time. He then tells us we have to sit on the floor of the casa (Don't the first off usually sit on the floor?) I guess because we look the youngest.__________________________________________________ I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,989 #60 September 24, 2003 >you can't see how fast the wind is blowing at 2000 ft. True; however, you _can_ get an upper-winds report that tells you wind at 3000 feet, and it's generally a safe bet that the winds at 2000 feet are a similar direction as the winds on jump run, but much lighter. >But will you accept that it makes more sense to gage delays by >watching the ground speed rather than the previous group? That's a pretty reasonable method that only fails under unusual circumstances, like winds at 2000 feet are strong but _opposite_ of those at jump run altitudes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamsville 0 #61 September 24, 2003 Just remember that those with the loudest mouths and the shortest etiquette often come up short when commanding others' respect. It sounds like there was a disconnect in communications somewhere. Being right (if you are in fact right) is not all you need to get a point across. BTW, it seems that my thread on jumpers' behavior has spawned quite a lively discussion on exit separation. Even got Professor Kallend and Diverdriver involved! |I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane. Harry, FB #4143 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cloud9 0 #62 September 24, 2003 Oh, the nerve of some skydivers!! I know what you mean, on the forums i visit a skydiver started a thread just to gossip about other skydivers. How cool is that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Keith 0 #63 September 24, 2003 Just curious, who taught your FJC and who were your JM's?Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydivelynn 1 #64 September 25, 2003 QuoteI was with two of my friends at a drop zone a couple weeks ago and some other ppl were doing four-way competitions. For the first three loads we were told to get off first, so we did. Next load, some guy on the way up starts yelling at us for getting on in that position, and wants us on after all the other belly flyers (Where I had originally expected to be placed) in a very condecending way. He then tells everyone on the plane that there are too many groups and each group should leave three (yes 3!) seconds of space between groups so everyone can get off in time. He then tells us we have to sit on the floor of the casa (Don't the first off usually sit on the floor?) I guess because we look the youngest. Possibly on the first couple loads your groups were bigger than 4-ways? I was there and am trying to remember. There was confusion on several loads as to how many passes there should be. Meets get like that sometimes. As for sitting on the floor, people sit the whole length of the casa on the floor when its a full load. People exiting in the last groups sit on the floor in the back, people exiting in the first groups sit on the floor towards the door. Has nothing to do with age :) Yelling happens when the props are turning and everyone is disorganized and jumpers are not sitting down. Yelling also happens on jump run when jumpers are full of adrenaline. I'm not excusing it but don't take it personally. Length of separation (eg 3 sec) comes from the pilot. Realistically I don't think any of us actually made 3 seconds (especially us 4-ways teams) but the point was to keep it moving, probably because of what the winds (uppers) were doing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,989 #65 September 25, 2003 >Length of separation (eg 3 sec) comes from the pilot. ??? I've never been on a load where a pilot told the jumpers how long to leave between exits. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #66 September 25, 2003 >I've never been on a load where a pilot told the jumpers how long to leave between exits. Every one of Mullins King Air loads he tells you how long to give. I'm lucky enough to have pilots that fly for me that all have 1500+ jumps and tell the jumpers in terms that they understand like 4 seconds or 8 seconds not the uppers speed Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydivelynn 1 #67 September 25, 2003 Quote??? I've never been on a load where a pilot told the jumpers how long to leave between exits. Maybe its a dropzone-specific thing. At this particular meet (chester, sc) the plane/pilot was one from the dz I normally jump at (css), and that's how it works there too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites redshift 0 #68 September 25, 2003 QuoteEvery one of Mullins King Air loads he tells you how long to give. I'm lucky enough to have pilots that fly for me that all have 1500+ jumps and tell the jumpers in terms that they understand like 4 seconds or 8 seconds not the uppers speed Now, I'd like THAT. I've read "Another Look at Descent Kinematics" 2 or 3 times, and I get it, but I'm just not going to be able to calculate optimal separation delay while on jump run. Even if I could, I don't always know the current uppers speed, I'm not spotting so I can't look out to estimate the ground speed, and I don't know exactly what those exiting before me are really going to do in freefall. Therefore, I need either 1) a good spotter who knows the exit order (preferred and actual), knows the uppers speed, is capable of figuring the optimal separation, and is willing to communicate it to the jumpers on the load; or 2) a rule of thumb that works. I suspect the difficulty of getting the former results in dubious instances of the latter (i.e. the 45-degree or 8-second rule). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #69 September 25, 2003 QuoteAfter I jump YOU wait 6 or 8 secs ok? I don't see the problem with this. Nothing wrong with good horizontal seperation, although in my opinion it would take more than 6 seconds - unless the runin was downwind or the kite quick.(like a King Air.) tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites trumpetfish 0 #70 September 25, 2003 As a low time jumper this issue of seperation time and exit order I find quite worrying. (particularly after reading this thread - there seems to be quite a bit of confusion?) To someone who is new to the sport, there seem to be a lot of factors involved in 'calculating' the exit order and timings. so sometimes we can't help but put trust in the more expereinced jumpers on a load. Spotting is part of the USPA A card but I think there should be more emphasis put on this stuff. i was shown the principles of spotting and about leaving 'at least' 5 secs between groups, but never touched on different skydive disciplines and how it affects exit order etc.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Newbie 0 #71 September 25, 2003 QuoteI have one: This lady I know, she's a newbie and when she's about to exit, she has the nerve to tell everyone on the load HOW MUCH TIME they have to give her, she goes like: After I jump YOU wait 6 or 8 secs ok?, I don't know about telling the entire load, but i normally will tell the person/group after me/us if i think they need to know (i'm a newbie too, but i'd rather tell someone who i haven't seen before at the dz, or someone with not that much more (or even less) experience than myself). I'm not saying everyone should do it, but all you have to do is ask "experienced" jumpers at the drop zone on how long they are leaving for separation on the previous load to be greeted with the astonishing "wait till the group/jumper out before you is at 45 degrees" to realise that even those with 1000s of jumps still use a method for separation that guarantees nothing. I'd rather have someone roll their eyes, and give a sarcastic response to me politely and cheerfully reminding them - with a smile - about distance and/or time to leave for separation, then have the threat of collisions and compromising safety for the sake of some pride and/or the assumption people on the load all are up to speed on something as basic as leaving adequate separation. I'm sure the newbie you are talking about is taking it a little too far telling the entire load, but newbies reading this should not feel like they can't tell people what to leave separation wise if they feel they need to. Peace of mind on exit is all too important for a good, safe jump so do what you feel you need to do to be happy mentally before exit is what i'm saying, especially if the guy/girl going out after you is doing some freeflying and "only has 10 sit jumps and a few attempts at headdown!!". You get the idea. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TrickyDicky 0 #72 September 25, 2003 At our DZ generally leave at least 5s between groups, but if we hear "The uppers are really blowing" from the pilot, we leave it a little longer. Easy. UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ScottishJohn 25 #73 September 25, 2003 QuoteI informed her that I was already manifested and involved in a 3-way. She told me that I should take myself off of manifest so that she could jump. Any thoughts on that? Yeah, tell her to go F*ck herself.---------------------------------------------------------------------- If you think my attitude stinks you should smell my fingers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,026 #74 September 25, 2003 QuoteAs a low time jumper this issue of seperation time and exit order I find quite worrying. (particularly after reading this thread - there seems to be quite a bit of confusion?) To someone who is new to the sport, there seem to be a lot of factors involved in 'calculating' the exit order and timings. so sometimes we can't help but put trust in the more expereinced jumpers on a load. Spotting is part of the USPA A card but I think there should be more emphasis put on this stuff. i was shown the principles of spotting and about leaving 'at least' 5 secs between groups, but never touched on different skydive disciplines and how it affects exit order etc.. Did you take a look at the stuff on my web site? www.iit.edu/~kallend You can work out a lot of this stuff ahead of time for a specific jump plane (some fly jumprun a lot faster than others). Don't let anyone hurry you up. If the uppers are strong so you need extra time between groups, you also have more time to get all the groups out with a satisfactory spot.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sssbc99 0 #75 September 25, 2003 QuoteBTW, it seems that my thread on jumpers' behavior has spawned quite a lively discussion on exit separation. Even got Professor Kallend and Diverdriver involved! | I will take the blame for that Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
jsaxton 0 #58 September 24, 2003 Tell her to fuck off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harksaw 0 #59 September 24, 2003 I was with two of my friends at a drop zone a couple weeks ago and some other ppl were doing four-way competitions. For the first three loads we were told to get off first, so we did. Next load, some guy on the way up starts yelling at us for getting on in that position, and wants us on after all the other belly flyers (Where I had originally expected to be placed) in a very condecending way. He then tells everyone on the plane that there are too many groups and each group should leave three (yes 3!) seconds of space between groups so everyone can get off in time. He then tells us we have to sit on the floor of the casa (Don't the first off usually sit on the floor?) I guess because we look the youngest.__________________________________________________ I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #60 September 24, 2003 >you can't see how fast the wind is blowing at 2000 ft. True; however, you _can_ get an upper-winds report that tells you wind at 3000 feet, and it's generally a safe bet that the winds at 2000 feet are a similar direction as the winds on jump run, but much lighter. >But will you accept that it makes more sense to gage delays by >watching the ground speed rather than the previous group? That's a pretty reasonable method that only fails under unusual circumstances, like winds at 2000 feet are strong but _opposite_ of those at jump run altitudes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamsville 0 #61 September 24, 2003 Just remember that those with the loudest mouths and the shortest etiquette often come up short when commanding others' respect. It sounds like there was a disconnect in communications somewhere. Being right (if you are in fact right) is not all you need to get a point across. BTW, it seems that my thread on jumpers' behavior has spawned quite a lively discussion on exit separation. Even got Professor Kallend and Diverdriver involved! |I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane. Harry, FB #4143 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloud9 0 #62 September 24, 2003 Oh, the nerve of some skydivers!! I know what you mean, on the forums i visit a skydiver started a thread just to gossip about other skydivers. How cool is that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #63 September 24, 2003 Just curious, who taught your FJC and who were your JM's?Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivelynn 1 #64 September 25, 2003 QuoteI was with two of my friends at a drop zone a couple weeks ago and some other ppl were doing four-way competitions. For the first three loads we were told to get off first, so we did. Next load, some guy on the way up starts yelling at us for getting on in that position, and wants us on after all the other belly flyers (Where I had originally expected to be placed) in a very condecending way. He then tells everyone on the plane that there are too many groups and each group should leave three (yes 3!) seconds of space between groups so everyone can get off in time. He then tells us we have to sit on the floor of the casa (Don't the first off usually sit on the floor?) I guess because we look the youngest. Possibly on the first couple loads your groups were bigger than 4-ways? I was there and am trying to remember. There was confusion on several loads as to how many passes there should be. Meets get like that sometimes. As for sitting on the floor, people sit the whole length of the casa on the floor when its a full load. People exiting in the last groups sit on the floor in the back, people exiting in the first groups sit on the floor towards the door. Has nothing to do with age :) Yelling happens when the props are turning and everyone is disorganized and jumpers are not sitting down. Yelling also happens on jump run when jumpers are full of adrenaline. I'm not excusing it but don't take it personally. Length of separation (eg 3 sec) comes from the pilot. Realistically I don't think any of us actually made 3 seconds (especially us 4-ways teams) but the point was to keep it moving, probably because of what the winds (uppers) were doing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #65 September 25, 2003 >Length of separation (eg 3 sec) comes from the pilot. ??? I've never been on a load where a pilot told the jumpers how long to leave between exits. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #66 September 25, 2003 >I've never been on a load where a pilot told the jumpers how long to leave between exits. Every one of Mullins King Air loads he tells you how long to give. I'm lucky enough to have pilots that fly for me that all have 1500+ jumps and tell the jumpers in terms that they understand like 4 seconds or 8 seconds not the uppers speed Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivelynn 1 #67 September 25, 2003 Quote??? I've never been on a load where a pilot told the jumpers how long to leave between exits. Maybe its a dropzone-specific thing. At this particular meet (chester, sc) the plane/pilot was one from the dz I normally jump at (css), and that's how it works there too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redshift 0 #68 September 25, 2003 QuoteEvery one of Mullins King Air loads he tells you how long to give. I'm lucky enough to have pilots that fly for me that all have 1500+ jumps and tell the jumpers in terms that they understand like 4 seconds or 8 seconds not the uppers speed Now, I'd like THAT. I've read "Another Look at Descent Kinematics" 2 or 3 times, and I get it, but I'm just not going to be able to calculate optimal separation delay while on jump run. Even if I could, I don't always know the current uppers speed, I'm not spotting so I can't look out to estimate the ground speed, and I don't know exactly what those exiting before me are really going to do in freefall. Therefore, I need either 1) a good spotter who knows the exit order (preferred and actual), knows the uppers speed, is capable of figuring the optimal separation, and is willing to communicate it to the jumpers on the load; or 2) a rule of thumb that works. I suspect the difficulty of getting the former results in dubious instances of the latter (i.e. the 45-degree or 8-second rule). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #69 September 25, 2003 QuoteAfter I jump YOU wait 6 or 8 secs ok? I don't see the problem with this. Nothing wrong with good horizontal seperation, although in my opinion it would take more than 6 seconds - unless the runin was downwind or the kite quick.(like a King Air.) tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trumpetfish 0 #70 September 25, 2003 As a low time jumper this issue of seperation time and exit order I find quite worrying. (particularly after reading this thread - there seems to be quite a bit of confusion?) To someone who is new to the sport, there seem to be a lot of factors involved in 'calculating' the exit order and timings. so sometimes we can't help but put trust in the more expereinced jumpers on a load. Spotting is part of the USPA A card but I think there should be more emphasis put on this stuff. i was shown the principles of spotting and about leaving 'at least' 5 secs between groups, but never touched on different skydive disciplines and how it affects exit order etc.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newbie 0 #71 September 25, 2003 QuoteI have one: This lady I know, she's a newbie and when she's about to exit, she has the nerve to tell everyone on the load HOW MUCH TIME they have to give her, she goes like: After I jump YOU wait 6 or 8 secs ok?, I don't know about telling the entire load, but i normally will tell the person/group after me/us if i think they need to know (i'm a newbie too, but i'd rather tell someone who i haven't seen before at the dz, or someone with not that much more (or even less) experience than myself). I'm not saying everyone should do it, but all you have to do is ask "experienced" jumpers at the drop zone on how long they are leaving for separation on the previous load to be greeted with the astonishing "wait till the group/jumper out before you is at 45 degrees" to realise that even those with 1000s of jumps still use a method for separation that guarantees nothing. I'd rather have someone roll their eyes, and give a sarcastic response to me politely and cheerfully reminding them - with a smile - about distance and/or time to leave for separation, then have the threat of collisions and compromising safety for the sake of some pride and/or the assumption people on the load all are up to speed on something as basic as leaving adequate separation. I'm sure the newbie you are talking about is taking it a little too far telling the entire load, but newbies reading this should not feel like they can't tell people what to leave separation wise if they feel they need to. Peace of mind on exit is all too important for a good, safe jump so do what you feel you need to do to be happy mentally before exit is what i'm saying, especially if the guy/girl going out after you is doing some freeflying and "only has 10 sit jumps and a few attempts at headdown!!". You get the idea. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrickyDicky 0 #72 September 25, 2003 At our DZ generally leave at least 5s between groups, but if we hear "The uppers are really blowing" from the pilot, we leave it a little longer. Easy. UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ScottishJohn 25 #73 September 25, 2003 QuoteI informed her that I was already manifested and involved in a 3-way. She told me that I should take myself off of manifest so that she could jump. Any thoughts on that? Yeah, tell her to go F*ck herself.---------------------------------------------------------------------- If you think my attitude stinks you should smell my fingers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #74 September 25, 2003 QuoteAs a low time jumper this issue of seperation time and exit order I find quite worrying. (particularly after reading this thread - there seems to be quite a bit of confusion?) To someone who is new to the sport, there seem to be a lot of factors involved in 'calculating' the exit order and timings. so sometimes we can't help but put trust in the more expereinced jumpers on a load. Spotting is part of the USPA A card but I think there should be more emphasis put on this stuff. i was shown the principles of spotting and about leaving 'at least' 5 secs between groups, but never touched on different skydive disciplines and how it affects exit order etc.. Did you take a look at the stuff on my web site? www.iit.edu/~kallend You can work out a lot of this stuff ahead of time for a specific jump plane (some fly jumprun a lot faster than others). Don't let anyone hurry you up. If the uppers are strong so you need extra time between groups, you also have more time to get all the groups out with a satisfactory spot.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sssbc99 0 #75 September 25, 2003 QuoteBTW, it seems that my thread on jumpers' behavior has spawned quite a lively discussion on exit separation. Even got Professor Kallend and Diverdriver involved! | I will take the blame for that Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
