sssbc99 0 #26 September 23, 2003 QuoteQuoteQuoteAfter banging his head agsint the wall until it's bloody, quade stumbles back over to the computer and says, "because the 45 degree 'rule of thumb' is meaningless. It has no validity at all." First off,why dont you explain yourself instead of trying to be funny (or whatever that was). Second, what do you do? Maybe it's because it's the zillionth time this year that someone proposed reliance on the 45 degree rule, only to be told that it doesn't work. Maybe it should be in a FAQ. Ok, you are right. I'm a newbie jackass but answer this question (which I never saw asked in the old discussions): Can it ever be dangerous (assuming no extreme conditions) for someone to exit when the group ahead of them is at a more or less 45 degree angle? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpingjoe 0 #27 September 23, 2003 Ok...I happen to know who CrazyIvan is talking about as well. And here is my 2 cents....I currently rent gear and being the nice person that I am, share with others. When I asked her to jump the rig next she got all pissed off and went to another DZ, but there was an air show going on so she came back. When she saw me, she said "your still here, well I am manifesting so I am jumping the rig", I informed her that I was already manifested and involved in a 3-way. She told me that I should take myself off of manifest so that she could jump. Any thoughts on that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #28 September 23, 2003 QuoteCan it ever be dangerous (assuming no extreme conditions) for someone to exit when the group ahead of them is at a more or less 45 degree angle? If there's a big group leaving in front of you and/or if the uppers are very strong then 45 degrees may not be adequate separation.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #29 September 23, 2003 QuoteAny thoughts on that? Yup, too bad for her. She left, you're already manifested, she'll wait.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phonics1981 0 #30 September 23, 2003 Quote She told me that I should take myself off of manifest so that she could jump. Any thoughts on that? I hope you told her to politely FUCK OFF? ------------------------------------------------------ "Ive given up on sigs cos I make a mess of them!" ------------------------------------------------------ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mailin 0 #31 September 23, 2003 hehe - not so sure I would do it politely Jennifer edit cause I can't typeArianna Frances Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #32 September 23, 2003 "and they dont say anything about the 45 degree angle which is way more important than the count." No its not. Learn about seperation my friend. 45 degree look will get you in trouble fast. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #33 September 23, 2003 "The way I was taught was to take 8 seconds and this was given as the rule." NO NO NO! NO FUCKING NO FUCKING NO! No wonder more and more people are opening on top of each other. Seperation is a mathematical calculation based on uppers, type of jumpers and exit speed. LEARN IT or I WILL GIVE YOU AN EARFUL when I see shit seperation. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #34 September 23, 2003 Omniskore.com has a good simulator. The freefall drift thing is poignant if the lower winds and uppers are different (normally uppers are faster than lowers.) Here's what I do when I have little information. I watch the ground from the plane and gage how much ground speed we have. If we are cooking along the ground (little uppers) we usually don't take much between groups (maybe just a normal climb out is enough). If we are practically standing still (high uppers) it's no big deal and we sometimes wait a 20 count between groups (and yet everyone still makes it back). Unless your plane is super fast, I doubt you'll ever really see 45 degrees (maybe in the first second). You'll likely see the same angle no matter what the winds are doing. good luck gripes? 1 - cameramen who have to sit in the back for us to crawl around during climb out even if the plane isn't crowded 2 - people who aren't ready to go when the door light goes on 3 - tandem masters who look at the manifest to see how many open spots are on the plane and then take them for leg room (conversely, the guy in the back that won't scoot down after the low jumpers leave but just lays back) 4 - People shouting "GO GO GO" when the first group is just checking the spot and for airplanes - relax, some of us do remember how to spot ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #35 September 23, 2003 Quote Can it ever be dangerous (assuming no extreme conditions) for someone to exit when the group ahead of them is at a more or less 45 degree angle? Ok, seriously this time. Any exit separation scheme based on an angular judgment is simply not going to work. Forget about it being more or less dangerous -- it simply does not work. Period. There are two basically acceptable methods; time between groups (calculated from airspeed and winds aloft) and distance covered over ground (judged by looking at the ground from the aircraft). Time between groups -can- work if all the factors are known and the skydivers actually are somewhat accurate in their assessment of the passage of time. It's what I would use if I were designing an exit strategy using robots. However, skydivers aren't quite that precise because of temporal displacement due to being jacked up on adrenaline. That said, it's still the method by which I usually caution the group behind my group because it's simply the easiest to communicate. Distance covered over ground is quite a bit easier to understand and use if you're the one actually doing the spotting. Both methods -require- that the person responsible for spotting each group exiting have a bit of judgment and take into account how long each group will be in the door before actually exiting the aircraft.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sssbc99 0 #36 September 23, 2003 Quote"The way I was taught was to take 8 seconds and this was given as the rule." NO NO NO! NO FUCKING NO FUCKING NO! No wonder more and more people are opening on top of each other. Seperation is a mathematical calculation based on uppers, type of jumpers and exit speed. LEARN IT or I WILL GIVE YOU AN EARFUL when I see shit seperation. Hey, relax tough guy. I was explaining what the instructors in AFF taught us as the "rule". I did not say that it was right. Your words in CAPS are funny though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #37 September 23, 2003 I agree with some of your gripes.. only ones I'll take issue with (and they are only minor disagreements) >1 - cameramen who have to sit in the back for us to crawl around during climb out even if the plane isn't crowded The Tandem's are the reason that we have turbines. Play nice with them and we keep the turbines. Doing tandem videos I want next to the door for some things and some shots but at exit I'll let the experienced jumpers have the door while I sit on the bench on the side wall ready to film my tandem. (Otter or Casa only) >4 - People shouting "GO GO GO" when the first group is just checking the spot and for airplanes - relax, some of us do remember how to spot If the first group is the only one that makes it back... they lose the right to spot anymore Jump run is for looking for traffic. My only gripes to your gripes Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #38 September 23, 2003 I am not being tough - I have just seen the past five times out at the DZ people opening right on top of each other. No offense to you, I'm just getting sick of it since I don't have much control over it even though we tell people time and time again what seperation to give... Anyhow - no personal attack meant, just getting sick of seeing shit seperation. Be safe out there ssbc99... -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #39 September 23, 2003 "However, skydivers aren't quite that precise because of temporal displacement due to being jacked up on adrenaline." How true - we used to do time training in classical music studies - people would get ten seconds on the metronome, then it would go off, 99 people out of a 100 are off after just 10 seconds without. My suggestion, count SLOWLY one-one-thousand, two-one-thousand, etc... Slower is ALWAYS better in this case, go arounds are much better than collisions. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonSanta 0 #40 September 23, 2003 Wow CrazyIvan, I dunno how it is in the US, but we get a royal chewing here if we're not ready when the jump ship is. And newbies giving orders to old timers is almost as bad. Santa Von GrossenArsch I only come in one flavour ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #41 September 23, 2003 Quote Wow CrazyIvan, I dunno how it is in the US, but we get a royal chewing here if we're not ready when the jump ship is. Depends on what you mean by that. At most DZs in the U.S. the pilot giving you the "green light" to jump is permission to jump and not a command to jump. There are exceptions, but then again, f' him. Seriously, it's your ass jumping out of the plane, not his. QuoteAnd newbies giving orders to old timers is almost as bad. Depends on the situation. Sometimes you must bring stuff to their attention. Sometimes there is time to be tactful and sometimes there is not time to be tactful. I would rather have somebody's ego brusied and still be alive than have somebody worry about it and have them be dead.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #42 September 23, 2003 I'll take your gripes on my gripes. But cameramen in the back is fine with me, until you have 4 of them to crawl over (while they are still tightening leg straps, pulling on helmuts and yelling "GO GO GO" I agree completely about the first group spotting. If you screw it up once, you're out. But you know that's not what I was talking about here. {{{But how can you look for traffic during jump run when some dork is still gearing up and won't move out of the way of the door}}} ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sssbc99 0 #43 September 23, 2003 QuoteI am not being tough - I have just seen the past five times out at the DZ people opening right on top of each other. No offense to you, I'm just getting sick of it since I don't have much control over it even though we tell people time and time again what seperation to give... Anyhow - no personal attack meant, just getting sick of seeing shit seperation. Be safe out there ssbc99... People opening on top of each other doesnt necessarily mean that there was bad separation. There are plenty of new freefliers that are not aware of their horizontal movement when they are "zooming" towards the group in front of them. But yes, separation time is most likely the major issue. Safety is always foremost in my mind. I will question things though so they make sense in my head rather than being involved in an accident because I wasnt properly informed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonSanta 0 #44 September 23, 2003 QuoteDepends on what you mean by that. At most DZs in the U.S. the pilot giving you the "green light" to jump is permission to jump and not a command to jump. There are exceptions, but then again, f' him. Seriously, it's your ass jumping out of the plane, not his. Oh I was referring to being on the ground. If we're manifested be better be ready to get on the load as soon as the plane has landed. In the air the pilot gives permission for us to open the door as well. Flying mostly Cessna's we ain't in a hurry to get off - much better to get a good spot Quote Depends on the situation. Sometimes you must bring stuff to their attention. Sometimes there is time to be tactful and sometimes there is not time to be tactful. I would rather have somebody's ego brusied and still be alive than have somebody worry about it and have them be dead. Yeah, I agree with this. My statement was more in general terms. For instance a dude who just got his certificate was trying to order a 1500+ jumper with regards to where he should land because 'you take up so much space with your swooping'. Santa Von GrossenArsch I only come in one flavour ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #45 September 23, 2003 "People opening on top of each other doesnt necessarily mean that there was bad separation." Sure, two things cause poor seperation the majority of the time. People using inferior ideas about time between exits and freeflier's attempting to get their headdown IMHO of course. I've seen way more instances of not enough time based on uppers and plane exit speed compared to freefliers all over the sky. Both are solvable with planning. First - people NEED to be educated on proper time between different types of groups. Second - people need to be educated on how to get themselves perpendicular to the jump run and if the can't get out of a shitty headdown attempt. Seems pretty straightforward to me. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #46 September 23, 2003 QuoteThey always say the same time amount too, regardless of the uppers, and they dont say anything about the 45 degree angle which is way more important than the count. Could we please find the fool still teaching people the 45 degree rule THAT DOESN'T WORK and flog them? Please? sssbc99...who taught you this 45 thing? You can PM it to me rather than posting it out loud. But we need to know who is spreading this crap because it's damn dangerous.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #47 September 23, 2003 >People opening on top of each other doesnt necessarily mean that > there was bad separation. You mean "doesn't mean bad separation at exit time?" I agree - but then exit separation has to take into account things like zoomy freeflyers. That may mean a second pass for freeflyers, or at least low time freeflyers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #48 September 23, 2003 >Can it ever be dangerous (assuming no extreme conditions) for > someone to exit when the group ahead of them is at a more or less > 45 degree angle? Yes. It's like counting how many fingers you have and then jumping. For most people, the number of fingers they have does not increase if they need more separation due to wind conditions (extreme or not.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sssbc99 0 #49 September 23, 2003 QuoteQuoteThey always say the same time amount too, regardless of the uppers, and they dont say anything about the 45 degree angle which is way more important than the count. Could we please find the fool still teaching people the 45 degree rule THAT DOESN'T WORK and flog them? Please? sssbc99...who taught you this 45 thing? You can PM it to me rather than posting it out loud. But we need to know who is spreading this crap because it's damn dangerous. I associated using your eyes instead of counting with the "45 degree rule". What i was actually "taught" was to watch the group ahead of you rather than counting the 7 seconds that was told to me in AFF(Assuming that you dont exit before 7 to 8 seconds). I didnt think it was right for an instructor to tell someone that 7 or 8 seconds was the golden rule because I have seen people count really fast. I guess i didnt really look at the actual 45 angle but if I counted six seconds and someone was right below the plane, I would wait longer (which is something I was told to do by quite a few people). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #50 September 23, 2003 QuoteDepends on what you mean by that. At most DZs in the U.S. the pilot giving you the "green light" to jump is permission to jump and not a command to jump. There are exceptions, but then again, f' him. Seriously, it's your ass jumping out of the plane, not his. Agreed, but I add this. When the red light comes on (door light) that is when spotting should start, NOT when the green (go) light comes on. I am way too tired of sitting in the back of the plane with 200 pounds of student on my lap, leaning back on 50 pounds of lumpy ass tandem gear, to see a fucking 4 way freefly open the door on the red, then sit there as a colective mindless zombie untill the green light comes on. Only then do they turn on their cameras, look out the door, do some stupid little breathing thing, and get the hell out of the airplane, only to then watch the next freely 3 way to do the exact same thing, leaving me to ride around in circles for a 2nd or 3rd pass! [/rant] Please note colors of lights, weight of tandem student, and idiocy of freeflyers in question are subject to change at your home DZ. PS I do free fly, AND I know how to spot an aircraft. (with no GPS even)---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
