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True, but very few manufacturers have ever advertised their canopies as so conssistantly soft as to be able to "handle the higher deployment speeds of todays freeflyers"
Those "randoms" suck at 120mph. Imagine 180mph.
This is the main point I was trying to make. I know this canopy opens pretty well most of the time in a track, and I've even opened in a sit and the opening was nice (I had a premature deployment). But if you get one of those random break stuff openings at 160-180mph! Well I couldn't even imagine it.
Don't open in a track, even if the manufacture suggests it. It's just not a good idea.
If we trained monkeys to pack, would you jump their pack jobs?
QuoteNothing happened to Scott.
He was talking about hard openings at a canopy control couse. He commented that although people using the new PD d-bags had normal openings that they were all very experienced skydivers. Point being that it hadn't really been tested w/ new jumpers and larger canopies who may be prone to making many more packing/ body position mistakes.
His analogy about loose line stows was " tie a rope around your waist and anchor it to a tree. Walk away until you stop. Try it again and run as fast as you can. Which is going to hurt more when you stop?"
I'm not sure I agree with this analogy. First off, the canopy doesn't just "stop" you. There is a much more dynamic action involved here. It's not nearly so cut and dry, and making it out to be like that is grossly under-representing the complexities involved with a canopy deployment...and what makes it more or less enjoyable.
As for "the only variable was that the rubber bands were beginning to look worn when I packed it"...that is a statistical impossibility. Every time you pack, it's slightly different. Something slips a bit more than usual, whatever. Those differences, in certain critical areas, can be the difference between a sweet opening and a trip to the chiropractor. I'm not saying that you should be jumping with worn out stow bands...all parts of your gear need to be kept in proper working order at all times...but I just don't buy that hard openings are caused by worn rubber bands.
First off, if you have bag dump, you know it. The opening is basically instant. I've had one, I saw the video of it (which has now, unfortunately, been lost), and was very nearly knocked out by it. It wasn't a "hard" opening, it was...as Scott said...like anchoring myself to a tree and running full speed away from it. I broke two lines and knocked myself senseless. That opening was on a Stiletto that almost always opened like a dream. Shit happened.
Secondly, there are many other things that can cause a hard opening. One is asymmetrical loading (having a shoulder low might do this). Another is slider rebound or possibly having the slider not all the way up against the stops. Yet another is not exposing the slider to the relative wind. One more is simply the design of the canopy (my personal opinion is that is has to do with trim angle more than anything else, but a canopy mfg. might be able to cast more light on that). There are still others....
I think the main difference here is to understand that a hard opening is not the same as an instant opening (as would be found, most likely, with bag dump). Hard openings are generally, IMO, a factor of packing the canopy itself. Personally, I think most hard openings are caused by poor slider presentation.
Not to take anything away from Scott, as he's very knowledgeable, but you simply don't need stow bands to control your openings, regardless of canopy size. What you do need is to pack clean and smooth, and make sure your slider is positioned correctly. The guys out there jumping no-stow bags are a testament to that.
"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
billvon 2,998
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>" tie a rope around your waist and anchor it to a tree. Walk away
> until you stop. Try it again and run as fast as you can. Which is
> going to hurt more when you stop?"
I don't understand that analogy. Is his point that if a canopy unstows its line more quickly, it will be "hurt" when it hits the end of the lines? In the above example, the skydiver would be the tree. Is Scott trying to say that the canopy weighs enough that its sudden stop at the end of the lines is painful? That seems unlikely since it only weighs a few pounds.
> until you stop. Try it again and run as fast as you can. Which is
> going to hurt more when you stop?"
I don't understand that analogy. Is his point that if a canopy unstows its line more quickly, it will be "hurt" when it hits the end of the lines? In the above example, the skydiver would be the tree. Is Scott trying to say that the canopy weighs enough that its sudden stop at the end of the lines is painful? That seems unlikely since it only weighs a few pounds.
78RATS 0
Quoteand the slider was not closed
How are you able to ensure your slider is totally "open". I have a Cobalt and my slider does not "lock" open.
Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why
Bill you have the analogy backwards.
The tree is a canopy just out of the bag, you are you. The comparisson is how sudden/ hard the stop is.
Ken
The tree is a canopy just out of the bag, you are you. The comparisson is how sudden/ hard the stop is.
Ken
"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken
Ken
PhreeZone 20
Do this to prove it to yourself... Only do the locking stows and coil the rest of the lines in the bottom of the pack tray and jump it. You won't notice a difference.
If the bag suddenly stoped when it was at line strech then the tree would be true, but since the bag is drug with you it does'nt really matter about the line stows to get it to that point.
If the bag suddenly stoped when it was at line strech then the tree would be true, but since the bag is drug with you it does'nt really matter about the line stows to get it to that point.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
Have you ever seen the video that TMs in training watch during the TM course? The video of a d-bag excelerating out of the container and that the bag is excellerating but the canopy is trying to stay in place. Basically it shows how the canopy could come out of the d-bag before linestretch. With that in mind, if the locking stows broke then you'd be in a world of hurt, thus I look at it with the idea that the extra 2 stows (on some d-bags) that give you 4-stows total (on some d-bags) lock your canopy in the bag in a more secure manner.
Obviously this is more of an issue with larger canopies (larger mass trying to excellerate/push against the locking stows).
Maybe if we're lucky someone knows what I'm talking about and has a link to pics or the video of that.
Obviously this is more of an issue with larger canopies (larger mass trying to excellerate/push against the locking stows).
Maybe if we're lucky someone knows what I'm talking about and has a link to pics or the video of that.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
QuoteQuoteand the slider was not closed
How are you able to ensure your slider is totally "open". I have a Cobalt and my slider does not "lock" open.
Good point. I can't ensure that the slider was totaly open. I just ment that I know it was not locked in the closed position with the barbs.
Maybe we should design something to lock the slider open, and make easliy released somehow.
If we trained monkeys to pack, would you jump their pack jobs?
QuoteMaybe we should design something to lock the slider open, and make easliy released somehow.
PD has that. You open the slider and the tabs "lock" into position into the edge of the slider.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
jerry81 10
Quote
PD has that. You open the slider and the tabs "lock" into position into the edge of the slider.
Neat trick. I always check that my (Atair) slider is open all the way before I wrap the tail around. But here's another question;
If the slider was just, say, 80% open (like if I forgot to check it), would the opening be harder or would the air hitting it expand it fully before I got slammed? Anyone tried this yet? Hooknswoop?
78RATS 0
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Maybe we should design something to lock the slider open, and make easliy released somehow.
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PD has that. You open the slider and the tabs "lock" into position into the edge of the slider.
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I love my Cobalt, but initially had a couple of brisk openings. I believe these were due to the slider worming its' way slightly closed while I was packing. I pay special attention to it now and my openings have been good. I would like to see a method to lock it open like PD has. I don't see a down side to the locking tabs.
Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why
Quote
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Maybe we should design something to lock the slider open, and make easliy released somehow.
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PD has that. You open the slider and the tabs "lock" into position into the edge of the slider.
________________________________________________
I love my Cobalt, but initially had a couple of brisk openings. I believe these were due to the slider worming its' way slightly closed while I was packing. I pay special attention to it now and my openings have been good. I would like to see a method to lock it open like PD has. I don't see a down side to the locking tabs.
Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why
QuoteIf the slider was just, say, 80% open...
Generally speaking, as long as the tabs aren't still engaged (in the "killed" position) as the canopy starts to spread, it's going to pull the slider nice and square. So, even if it's not totally perfect in the packjob, it should stretch nice and tight during opening...the trick is to get it in the airflow early (ie- pulling it out in front of the packjob and quartering the rest of it).
...now, if the slider isn't tucked up against the stops, you're looking at a totally different story.
"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
You may prefer to have the slider kill-lines locked open, tabs secured in the channel. If they are hanging loose you will find friction burns/ holes in the nylon kill-line channels.
Not to mention risking the slider hanging up on a cascade.
Ken
Not to mention risking the slider hanging up on a cascade.
Ken
"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken
Ken
That's absolutely true. It certainly is best to have the lines locked away (if the slider permits it). Besides the obvious problem with burns and catches though, the slider should open itself up during opening...at least to a point.
"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
No. The bag I made up was based off my existing D-bag size (for my Infinity, actually) with alterations made on top of the rough pattern. It's actually a pretty easy design. The problem, as I've stated before, is that the bag becomes very limited as to what canopies you can put in it. Since you loose the advantage of stretttttccchhhh that rubber bands have, the bag won't let you change canopy volumes nearly to the degree that a bag with normal stows will.
I must be honest, I built my bag very specifically to fit my Xaos (as far as where I placed the locking tabs and such), and really haven't given much thought to building "stock size" bags. I have concerns about under or overstuffing the bag...I don't think the locking tabs would be nearly as effective if the bag were too loosely packed...which could easily result in bag dump...which we all know is bad juju.
This, IMO, is a major problem with mass marketing a totally stowless bag design. I know the folks at PD and SunPath are smarter than I am, so maybe they've come up with a way to ensure the tabs stay locked regardless of pack volume. I hope they have, or people will get hurt using this system.
I've said all along that I don't think this style bag is good for open-market use. I built it to prove a point about line stows and openings...I've built one or two other no-stow bags for friends, but I was always able to pack-and-fit-and-alter-and-pack-and-fit-and-alter as I was building it. I'm not sure I'm comfortable building them any other way....
If you have specific questions, PM me...
"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
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