richardd 0 #1 September 14, 2003 Had my first mal today on jump 25. This was my conversion to thowout PC. all went well, the main deployed with slider up and lineover. Although not obvious at first. Just didnt steer or respond to inputs. Chopped it and to my horror a round appears argghgh. I landed running unfortunately on a windy day but PLFed and landed hard but am fine. Big grinMy well being seemed to be lower down the list than the missing canopy but found it in the end. Im sure this will hit home soon but its nice to know you can do the neccesary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rgoper 0 #2 September 14, 2003 are you saying that you were not aware of the round in the reserve tray in the container prior to your skydive? always know whats in the main and reserve in the container. glad you handled it well, sounds like you identified the mal and took the appropriate actions to cut away cleanly and deploy your round reserve. here in the states USPA requires the parachute system to have 2 ram air parachutes, obviously your organization hasn't evolved into the 21st century yet. Take Care, Stay Safe.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites richardd 0 #3 September 14, 2003 Sounds like russian roulette. I am told there are one or two rounds still knocking around. A chute is a chute i spose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #4 September 14, 2003 QuoteA chute is a chute i spose. Nope, it isn't. I would not get on a plane without knowing what gear I had. I teach students to verify their mains and reserves during gear checks, too. Always know your gear. Glad you're OK. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 102 #5 September 14, 2003 It should not be Russian roulette. They are not just knocking around. Read the reserve data card.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites spidermonky 0 #6 September 14, 2003 Quotehere in the states USPA requires the parachute system to have 2 ram air parachutes, obviously your organization hasn't evolved into the 21st century yet. Take Care, Stay Safe. Is this right?? I've seen many student rigs with round reserves currently in use in the US. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rgoper 0 #7 September 14, 2003 after some research in my IRM, SIM and Sky Divers handbook i came up with the following information: SIM: Section 5, Page 106 reads as follows: Reserve Parachute 1) All sky divers should use a steerable reserve canopy 2) The FAA requires the reserve parachute assembly, including harness, container, canopy, risers, pilot chute, deployment device, and ripcord to be approved. 3) Jumpers must observe FAR's regarding the manufacturer's maximum certified weights and speeds for parachutes. there is a lot more to follow. but "steerable" is the "key" word in the SIM regarding a reserve parachute, so i take that to mean if you do utilize a round as a reserve, it must be steerable. thus the old saying "a round will get you down, but a square will get you there!" --Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jtval 0 #8 September 14, 2003 wowo glad you are ok but It coulda been fatal if the reserve was one you couldnt handle. I hope you take this as a learning experience and ask whats in the gear you are using/renting/jumping next time. Ive had ppl offer to let me demo their rigs. I could handle the mains but it was the reserve I was afraid of in most cases. now I dont plan on using thier reserve but I wont hesitate if need beMy photos My Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tinfoil 0 #9 September 15, 2003 QuoteQuoteA chute is a chute i spose. Nope, it isn't. I would not get on a plane without knowing what gear I had. I teach students to verify their mains and reserves during gear checks, too. Always know your gear. Glad you're OK. _Am How do you verify the main when its packed? “- - Sumo is the greatest of sports. It has power, grace, speed and cluture. And most importantly, two fat bastards smacking the shit out of each other. ” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rgoper 0 #10 September 15, 2003 QuoteHow do you verify the main when its packed? your joking....right? it is supposed to be common knowledge that the reserve info is in the reserve flap stored on the container itself, last packed date, size, manufacturer, etc...any rig you pick up that doesn't have this information on it, hang it back up and jump another day, or have a "come to jesus" with the S&TA ot DZO.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tinfoil 0 #11 September 15, 2003 No, I wasn't. I'm just use to a different system, I'm from Canada. None of the student rigs at my DZ had packing cards or seals, which in Canada is perfectly fine, as long as the rigs don't leave the DZ and the info is kept someone on the DZ, say on a computer. “- - Sumo is the greatest of sports. It has power, grace, speed and cluture. And most importantly, two fat bastards smacking the shit out of each other. ” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Casch 0 #12 September 15, 2003 QuoteHow do you verify the main when its packed? ***your joking....right? it is supposed to be common knowledge that the reserve info is in the reserve flap stored on the container itself, last packed date, size, manufacturer, etc...any rig you pick up that doesn't have this information on it, hang it back up and jump another day, or have a "come to jesus" with the S&TA ot DZO. Umm, I've never inspected my DZ's Reseserve info cards on their rigs, but does it really state what the main canopy is? And if it does, why would they do that when mains can and do often change, much more often and easier than reserves? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #13 September 15, 2003 Steerable round reserves are old school stuff. Anything after about 1970 is steerable. And depending on the round it can be very steerable. (PC's are cool ) And remember the USPA has zero say so in the matter, its the FAA that dictacts it. You don't have to be in the USPA Mains are rarely marked on the container. I know of a DZ that has all their 170's in one color rig, 190's in another and 210's in a third. There is noting on the outside saying whats in them, just the size. You have to look up the rig number to see whats in it.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skylord 1 #14 September 15, 2003 SIM: Section 5, Page 106 reads as follows: Reserve Parachute 1) All sky divers should use a steerable reserve canopy there is a lot more to follow. but "steerable" is the "key" word in the SIM regarding a reserve parachute, With all respect, the key word is NOT "steerable" but "should". That makes it non-mandatory. "Shall", "Must", are the words the FAA uses to make things mandatory in a regulatory environment. In any event, I'd never pilot an airplane without knowing what kind of wings were on it, or how it glided in the event of an emergency. I am assuming the SIM reflects any FARs that may be out there governing any requirement on reserve chutes. I'm very thankful to hear of the successful handling of this malfunction!! BobBob Marks "-when you leave the airplane its all wrong til it goes right, its a whole different mindset, this is why you have system redundancy." Mattaman Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #2 September 14, 2003 are you saying that you were not aware of the round in the reserve tray in the container prior to your skydive? always know whats in the main and reserve in the container. glad you handled it well, sounds like you identified the mal and took the appropriate actions to cut away cleanly and deploy your round reserve. here in the states USPA requires the parachute system to have 2 ram air parachutes, obviously your organization hasn't evolved into the 21st century yet. Take Care, Stay Safe.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
richardd 0 #3 September 14, 2003 Sounds like russian roulette. I am told there are one or two rounds still knocking around. A chute is a chute i spose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #4 September 14, 2003 QuoteA chute is a chute i spose. Nope, it isn't. I would not get on a plane without knowing what gear I had. I teach students to verify their mains and reserves during gear checks, too. Always know your gear. Glad you're OK. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #5 September 14, 2003 It should not be Russian roulette. They are not just knocking around. Read the reserve data card.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spidermonky 0 #6 September 14, 2003 Quotehere in the states USPA requires the parachute system to have 2 ram air parachutes, obviously your organization hasn't evolved into the 21st century yet. Take Care, Stay Safe. Is this right?? I've seen many student rigs with round reserves currently in use in the US. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #7 September 14, 2003 after some research in my IRM, SIM and Sky Divers handbook i came up with the following information: SIM: Section 5, Page 106 reads as follows: Reserve Parachute 1) All sky divers should use a steerable reserve canopy 2) The FAA requires the reserve parachute assembly, including harness, container, canopy, risers, pilot chute, deployment device, and ripcord to be approved. 3) Jumpers must observe FAR's regarding the manufacturer's maximum certified weights and speeds for parachutes. there is a lot more to follow. but "steerable" is the "key" word in the SIM regarding a reserve parachute, so i take that to mean if you do utilize a round as a reserve, it must be steerable. thus the old saying "a round will get you down, but a square will get you there!" --Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtval 0 #8 September 14, 2003 wowo glad you are ok but It coulda been fatal if the reserve was one you couldnt handle. I hope you take this as a learning experience and ask whats in the gear you are using/renting/jumping next time. Ive had ppl offer to let me demo their rigs. I could handle the mains but it was the reserve I was afraid of in most cases. now I dont plan on using thier reserve but I wont hesitate if need beMy photos My Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tinfoil 0 #9 September 15, 2003 QuoteQuoteA chute is a chute i spose. Nope, it isn't. I would not get on a plane without knowing what gear I had. I teach students to verify their mains and reserves during gear checks, too. Always know your gear. Glad you're OK. _Am How do you verify the main when its packed? “- - Sumo is the greatest of sports. It has power, grace, speed and cluture. And most importantly, two fat bastards smacking the shit out of each other. ” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #10 September 15, 2003 QuoteHow do you verify the main when its packed? your joking....right? it is supposed to be common knowledge that the reserve info is in the reserve flap stored on the container itself, last packed date, size, manufacturer, etc...any rig you pick up that doesn't have this information on it, hang it back up and jump another day, or have a "come to jesus" with the S&TA ot DZO.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tinfoil 0 #11 September 15, 2003 No, I wasn't. I'm just use to a different system, I'm from Canada. None of the student rigs at my DZ had packing cards or seals, which in Canada is perfectly fine, as long as the rigs don't leave the DZ and the info is kept someone on the DZ, say on a computer. “- - Sumo is the greatest of sports. It has power, grace, speed and cluture. And most importantly, two fat bastards smacking the shit out of each other. ” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casch 0 #12 September 15, 2003 QuoteHow do you verify the main when its packed? ***your joking....right? it is supposed to be common knowledge that the reserve info is in the reserve flap stored on the container itself, last packed date, size, manufacturer, etc...any rig you pick up that doesn't have this information on it, hang it back up and jump another day, or have a "come to jesus" with the S&TA ot DZO. Umm, I've never inspected my DZ's Reseserve info cards on their rigs, but does it really state what the main canopy is? And if it does, why would they do that when mains can and do often change, much more often and easier than reserves? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #13 September 15, 2003 Steerable round reserves are old school stuff. Anything after about 1970 is steerable. And depending on the round it can be very steerable. (PC's are cool ) And remember the USPA has zero say so in the matter, its the FAA that dictacts it. You don't have to be in the USPA Mains are rarely marked on the container. I know of a DZ that has all their 170's in one color rig, 190's in another and 210's in a third. There is noting on the outside saying whats in them, just the size. You have to look up the rig number to see whats in it.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skylord 1 #14 September 15, 2003 SIM: Section 5, Page 106 reads as follows: Reserve Parachute 1) All sky divers should use a steerable reserve canopy there is a lot more to follow. but "steerable" is the "key" word in the SIM regarding a reserve parachute, With all respect, the key word is NOT "steerable" but "should". That makes it non-mandatory. "Shall", "Must", are the words the FAA uses to make things mandatory in a regulatory environment. In any event, I'd never pilot an airplane without knowing what kind of wings were on it, or how it glided in the event of an emergency. I am assuming the SIM reflects any FARs that may be out there governing any requirement on reserve chutes. I'm very thankful to hear of the successful handling of this malfunction!! BobBob Marks "-when you leave the airplane its all wrong til it goes right, its a whole different mindset, this is why you have system redundancy." Mattaman Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwmike 0 #15 September 15, 2003 Quote here in the states USPA requires the parachute system to have 2 ram air parachutes, obviously your organization hasn't evolved into the 21st century yet. Take Care, Stay Safe. This is not true. Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #16 September 15, 2003 Quotehere in the states USPA requires the parachute system to have 2 ram air parachutes, obviously your organization hasn't evolved into the 21st century yet. Take Care, Stay Safe. This is not true. i missquoted, i thought the follow up post would clarify the original comment....guess not. in any event to jump any rig without knowing what size, type of main and/or reserve the container has in it isn't very clever. when i underwent my tandem progression/afp program years ago, you better damn well know what's inside the container, it's also the USPA coach and/or AFF to make sure the correct gear is being utilzed for each sky diver when using DZ gear. i'm quite certain that if rounds were the best reserve to use, everybody would have one, they aren't being antiquated for no reason at all.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwmike 0 #17 September 15, 2003 Ahhh, Didn't know I was supposed to keep reading until you finally got it right Michael QuoteQuotehere in the states USPA requires the parachute system to have 2 ram air parachutes, obviously your organization hasn't evolved into the 21st century yet. Take Care, Stay Safe. This is not true. i missquoted, i thought the follow up post would clarify the original comment....guess not. in any event to jump any rig without knowing what size, type of main and/or reserve the container has in it isn't very clever. when i underwent my tandem progression/afp program years ago, you better damn well know what's inside the container, it's also the USPA coach and/or AFF to make sure the correct gear is being utilzed for each sky diver when using DZ gear. i'm quite certain that if rounds were the best reserve to use, everybody would have one, they aren't being antiquated for no reason at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #18 September 15, 2003 QuoteAhhh, Didn't know I was supposed to keep reading until you finally got it right we all learn something new everyday.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #19 September 15, 2003 QuoteMains are rarely marked on the container from my observations, 99% of the DZ's here in Texas that i've jumped at do in fact have the size & manufacturer of the main on a spec chart on the backpad of the container. i've also seen DZ's utilize their student gear with a number stitched on it, and a schematic on the wall where they hang with the main & reserve canopy sizes and manufacturer's on the sheet, along with a printout of the main's color scheme so the student can have a visual of what they will see above their head when they deploy the main parachute.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
richardd 0 #20 September 15, 2003 Ive gained a valuable experience. Cutaway and round ride so am confident for next time. I will make sure i am aware of what i am jumping next time! Im not sure it will make any real difference wether round or square if theres limited kit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #21 September 15, 2003 That was you? I thought you must've broken something for sure, from where I was standing you were coming down pretty quick. IMHO it's pretty lax of Langar to still have kit with round reserves, it was windy at the time and you could have landed anywhere - into a building, power lines, the road, the factories... Glad you're alright dude, GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phonics1981 0 #22 September 15, 2003 Good to see your throw away conversion went well!!! Well done on the way ya handled it tho ------------------------------------------------------ "Ive given up on sigs cos I make a mess of them!" ------------------------------------------------------ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skytash 0 #23 September 15, 2003 QuoteThat was you? I thought you must've broken something for sure, from where I was standing you were coming down pretty quick. IMHO it's pretty lax of Langar to still have kit with round reserves, it was windy at the time and you could have landed anywhere - into a building, power lines, the road, the factories... Glad you're alright dude, Gus What he said! While we were watching you land I was wondering whether you were ever taught about landing/steering rounds during your training? tashDon't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #24 September 15, 2003 Quote How do you verify the main when its packed? Every DZ I've been at has some kind of system for knowing whats inside. Bigger DZ's embroider numbers on each rig, then have a chart showing what each rig contains. Other popular solutions are to sew a tag to the risers which can be viewed under the riser flaps, or write the size on the cuttaway handle with a marker. One DZ had a simple solution, all their mains were the same size. Another had different colored rigs for the different mains. Lastly, if the student still didn't know, they could (and should) ask their instructor. Know your gear. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
321seeya 0 #25 September 15, 2003 1st Mal = B E E R! I like IBC Rootbeer in the bottle.... Glad you made it! DJ BASE 3:16 - Even if you are about to land on a cop - DONT FORGET TO FLARE! Free the soul -- DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
