Tandem Masters: What is your favorite Otter/Caravan exit?

[PhreeZone 20]

Tandem Instructors, I was recently traveling to another DZ and saw a mthod of exiting that none of the instructors at my DZ us and that got me thinking about other methods I might never have seen yet and why people like them.

I personally do an exit that has the student crouched near the front of the door then I rock them out presenting as soon as we leave the plane. I've seen TM's that back up to the door and roll out backwards with some students. I've seen others that leave in a ball and do a few flips before punching an arch to get stability. I had never seen an exit that has the TM and students legs hanging out the door with the TM seated on the edge then just does a twist of the upper body to get out the door before 2 weeks ago.

Whats everyones favorite method and why?

I use my method since as soon as we leave the plane I'm flying the exit and have stability soon and can throw the drogue with in about 2-3 seconds.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[AggieDave 6]

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TM seated on the edge then just does a twist of the upper body to get out the door

Makes you wonder about how safe that is in regards to the drogue in the BOC pouch.

I don't jump Otters/Caravans much as TM, so I've only got about 20 tandems out of an Otter. (opposed to the large majority being out of a 182). I've done 2 different exits out of an Otter as TM. One I like, the other, while not bad, not as good as the first. The first is to stand (crouch) facing out the door, get the student's head out clear of the door (while you have your hand(s) on the float bar. Push out/off and turn right (head up) into the relative wind. Very easy exit, nice and safe and very stable.

The second is a variation of the exit I do out of a 182. TM kneeling in the door, hand on the door frame (up where the front float would be), have the student hang their legs out the door. Push off with your knees and out the door. You can push forward to do a flip if the student would like to, or rotate back to a head up (looking at the plane) orientation on the hill.


With all of that said, I'm a pretty new TM (only about 200 tandem jumps), so take what I say with a grain of salt.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Hooknswoop 19]

Back lay-out. I never had a problem and as you rotate belly to the relative wind, you are facing the camera-man and can pitch the drogue.

Derek

[FrogNog 1]

A tandem master I ride with a lot always does the backward roll-out with the pax holding their knees. Video shows he does 3-5 flips, I believe.

This is my favorite tandem exit because we all get to wave as he leaves. (We like him.)

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Pull.

[diablopilot 2]

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I had never seen an exit that has the TM and students legs hanging out the door with the TM seated on the edge then just does a twist of the upper body to get out the door before 2 weeks ago.

It's a great method if you end up riding up sitting on the floor. Also works well for some of the older customers who's knees and hips may be less than flexable.....

I learned it from a good friend, and a great tandem instructor who posts here occasionaly, and it works great.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Liemberg 0]

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Makes you wonder about how safe that is in regards to the drogue in the BOC pouch.

Since it is the only way to get out of a Cessna 206 / 207 - where the cabin + door is just not high enough to stand up like in an Otter / Caravan - I'd say it is pretty safe. BUT there will be more wear on the pouch, that has to be replaced more often. Greatest advantage I find is that the passenger can be 'molded' in a good body position, hanging outside the aircraft PRIOR to exit.

(On my knees in the door, the passenger sitting in front with only his legs hanging out, my upper body is just too long and I bump my head against the door - Not smart...)

While I'm at it: In a C182 I don't turn in the door inside the aircraft; I'm already backwards on take-off. During the hook-up I get on my knees and have the passenger sit on my lap, not on his/her knees but with legs in front like the whole ride up. Fast, safe, comfortable - what more does the elderly tandemmaster want...?

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[AggieDave 6]

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Since it is the only way to get out of a Cessna 206 / 207 - where the cabin + door is just not high enough to stand up like in an Otter / Caravan - I'd say it is pretty safe.

Couldn't you exit those jump planes the same way I exit 182s? I'm on my knees, turn into the door facing out. Have the student put their feet on the step (or just hang behind the step), stablize the tandem pair with your arms on the door frame. Push off with your knees out into the wind. You can exit stable or do a flip if you want.

Would that not work? (I'm asking since I've never done a tandem out of a 206/207).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Liemberg 0]

Well, since it is quite a climb to the nearest step, I'd say you can't...
The door (where you exit) in a C206/207 is more towards the tail than in a C182. It is behind the landing gear, not over it. That is also why you can't be on your knees, because the door is lower (i.e. distance between floor and top of the door).
I can assure you that, other than a bit more wear on the drogue, there is no problem with that exit - in fact over here we all think the workload on a C206 exit to be a lot less than on a C182 exit ...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[cpoxon 0]

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I had never seen an exit that has the TM and students legs hanging out the door with the TM seated on the edge then just does a twist of the upper body to get out the door before 2 weeks ago.

Another one for the tandem forum! :-)

Of the 64 tandems I've done, 14 have been from a Caravan and this is the method I've used. Being a low-time instructor, I like to be able to present myself square to the slipstream by pivoting on exit. Aren't the Otter and the Caravan two different beasts though? Isn't the door of an Otter significantly bigger (at least, higher?) than a Caravan? I'd be interested to know the exact dimensions if anyone has them (are the doors different in a Grand and regular Caravan?) Also, Otters have benches (and taller fuselages) which make it easier to get into a standing position for exit. Whereas in a Caravan you sit on the floor. I find it easier to shuffle along the floor of the caravan to the door, taking care to lift myself up (and therefore the bottom of the rig) so as not to snag any handles. When I set up in the door I check that my handles haven't been snagged and when I pivot out I also lift myself up so as not to catch the drogue on the edge of the door. The other more experienced instuctors do a mixture of this, floating exits and back lay-outs from a seated position.

I've not done a tandem from an Otter but I have done the majority of my tandem's from a Let which is similar and has a pretty huge door. I like to do a standing, poised exit, so I can present to the slipstream on exit. I also done a few diving exits (still presenting to the slipstream, but head low). Now that I'm more experienced I'd like to try different exits like floating and lay-outs, but I think I'll wait until the Let returns next Spring.

Oh, and I also have one Skyvan tandem exit, which I floated and was a lot of fun!

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[riggerrob 643]

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I had never seen an exit that has the TM and students legs hanging out the door with the TM seated on the edge then just does a twist of the upper body to get out the door before 2 weeks ago.

It's a great method if you end up riding up sitting on the floor. Also works well for some of the older customers who's knees and hips may be less than flexable.....

I learned it from a good friend, and a great tandem instructor who posts here occasionaly, and it works great.

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Yes, similar to the exit from a cargo-door Cessna 206.
Very simple and very stable.

[riggerrob 643]

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Makes you wonder about how safe that is in regards to the drogue in the BOC pouch.

Since it is the only way to get out of a Cessna 206 / 207 - where the cabin + door is just not high enough to stand up like in an Otter / Caravan - I'd say it is pretty safe. BUT there will be more wear on the pouch, that has to be replaced more often. Greatest advantage I find is that the passenger can be 'molded' in a good body position, hanging outside the aircraft PRIOR to exit.

(On my knees in the door, the passenger sitting in front with only his legs hanging out, my upper body is just too long and I bump my head against the door - Not smart...)

While I'm at it: In a C182 I don't turn in the door inside the aircraft; I'm already backwards on take-off. During the hook-up I get on my knees and have the passenger sit on my lap, not on his/her knees but with legs in front like the whole ride up. Fast, safe, comfortable - what more does the elderly tandemmaster want...?

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This elderly tandemmaster has a bad ankle, bad knee and a weak disc in his back, so he does a simplified version of your favorite exit.
He keeps his butt on the floor until it is time to climb out. Then he puts his left foot on the wheel and his right foot in the aft corner of the door, so he can launch over top of the student. They go vertical for a couple of seconds, then start to flatten out. Too easy!
If he is in the front of a narrow-body Cessna then he reluctantly connects the side straps before closing the door.

[riggerrob 643]

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A tandem master I ride with a lot always does the backward roll-out with the pax holding their knees. Video shows he does 3-5 flips, I believe.

This is my favorite tandem exit because we all get to wave as he leaves. (We like him.)

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Backing out the door is scary for two reasons.

First, back in the 1980s several TMs broke closing loops on the doorway and at least one of them put a nasty dent in the horizontal tail of a King Air.

Secondly, any type of loop starts rotational momentum that can translate into side spins way too quickly.

[lug 4]

I am divided on which one I like the best, so I will have to say both are.

The Otter I find is more difficult to have a consistent exit with the side step facing the RW like AFF. I find it challenging and I like that. Not every exit is the same but I try to make it picture perfect, which makes it fun. I also dive out at about a 45-degree angle of line of flight towards the tail into the RW. The hard part is making sure the student understands they don’t need to help by pushing off. All they need to do is have their hands out in front like diving in a pool and their feet on my ass arching on go.

The C-208 I find a no brainier and I can do it vary fast. I exit sitting on the egde with my left foot on the threshold sometimes in the corner of the rear door jam and threshold, with right foot out side the plane. My left hand is holding onto the inside bar the right is on the floor beside me. The student has their legs out side and they are somewhat arching with hands crossed. The student is hanging off of me out side the plane. I Slightly pull up with my left hand putting some weight on my left foot and right hand then pushing off with the left foot and pivot on my right hand to facing the RW. My right arm is keeped locked until I have cleared the threshold. When I do this I am lifting and clearing the bottom of the rig from the floor. I have over 700 of these exits and have never had a problem like rig damaged or premature drogue extraction, yet.

By any means do I mean I will never have a problem or that it will not happen to someone else. I am 6’1” so there might or might not be an advantage over the shorter instructors. I do know quite a few shorter instructors, then me, and they have not had a problem.

As for the C-182 I have not done vary many of them but I am more comfortable diving them out. Sometime with the student, feet are behind the landing gear or their right foot on the step with mine, left knee on the threshold. How I approach the door and how the student feet are situated depends on their size and shape.

Memento Mori

[Firemage 0]

During the hook-up I get on my knees and have the passenger sit on my lap

[Liemberg 0]

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You couldn't buy me a beer first?

Well, with you being the passenger chances are this is your FIRST jump, so I fail to see why I should be buying the beer. Are you that good looking?

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[Firemage 0]

LOL!

I think either you or me buying each other a beer is pretty impossible looking at our locations! Still, being serious for a sec, does height or weight of the passenger make a difference on how you exit?

[jeremyneas 0]

Fav and only method is forward.

Backward exits are pretty risky becase you still in the plane or getting set up with the drogue just beggin too come loose. Seems pretty moronic to me.

[diablopilot 2]

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The hard part is making sure the student understands they don’t need to help by pushing off. All they need to do is have their hands out in front like diving in a pool and their feet on my ass arching on go.

I find with Otter or Caravan the best way for me to guarentee the student does not "help" me out the door is to have them hold their harness (keeps the hands out of the way, and once I am set in the door they "kneel". They rarely even touch the floor at this point. Now I can exit the plane, and there is little chance of a student injuring themselves on the door frame, set the drouge, and then signal the student to bring their arms out to the normal freefall position.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[riggerrob 643]

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***The hard part is making sure the student understands they don’t need to help by pushing off.

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I just tell them that "helping" only slows me down.
to that end, I tell them to put their hands on their chest before they get near the door.
I also tell them that their primary task on exit is to push their hips forward. Some of the younger guys need to hear "push hips forward" three or four times before it sinks in.
Alternately, I tell them "big banana" three or four times or until it sinks in.

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[diablopilot 2]

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Some of the younger guys need to hear "push hips forward" three or four times before it sinks in.

Agreed. Geting the "visual" of the situation in their head REALLY helps.

I use the "you're a bannana, I'm a big X" alot.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.