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QuoteNope...
I agree with DD that its great that we are all talking about safety. I disagree still that its easier to plan for other canopies while under one compared to things that don't move and can be looked at on a map.
Still beating a dead horse?
never pull low......unless you are
QuoteI really hope you aren't planning on landing in that tree line.
I though we were talking about visibility.
never pull low......unless you are
In before the lock. 
__________________________________________
Blue Skies and May the Force be with you.
Blue Skies and May the Force be with you.
Nope - if you read the original question - its about "planning" not visibility. Please pay attention to the poll at hand.
-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --
-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --
Just trying to help one person not die because they took for granted where canopies should and shouldn't be. Doesn't seem like a dead horse to me.
-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --
-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --
QuoteJust trying to help one person not die because they took for granted where canopies should and shouldn't be. Doesn't seem like a dead horse to me.
Who was taking for granted where canopies should or shouldn't be?
never pull low......unless you are
In the spirit of my original idea behind this thread, I will not say anything in response to you because you are the one beating a dead horse.
I simply want one student to realize that they should be much more diligent in looking for canopies than they should about powerlines given the fact that powerlines:
a) do not move
b) can be pointed out and studied on a map
c) generally sit near things we wouldn't want to land on, near, or through anyways
I apologize to all for caring about this subject so much, but there was one completely obvious incident already this year where someone became complacent with "get where I've already planned" - itis and collided with someone midair killing them. Just a thought, but, if that person had been more diligent about scoping for canopies during all phases of that single canopy flight, things may have turned out differently.
-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --
I simply want one student to realize that they should be much more diligent in looking for canopies than they should about powerlines given the fact that powerlines:
a) do not move
b) can be pointed out and studied on a map
c) generally sit near things we wouldn't want to land on, near, or through anyways
I apologize to all for caring about this subject so much, but there was one completely obvious incident already this year where someone became complacent with "get where I've already planned" - itis and collided with someone midair killing them. Just a thought, but, if that person had been more diligent about scoping for canopies during all phases of that single canopy flight, things may have turned out differently.
-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --
QuoteIn the spirit of my original idea behind this thread, I will not say anything in response to you because you are the one beating a dead horse.
IMO the original intent of this thread was to try to win an argument that you couldn't win in another thread.
never pull low......unless you are
If you think I'm wasting my time typing away here just to win an argument when my intent is simply to perhaps open the eyes of some jumpers, please, do not insult my intelligence as you couldn't be further off base. The question is simple as everyone but two people seem to think. WHAT IS EASIER TO PLAN FOR?
I could care less about winning shit my friend, trust me - while I do enjoy dropzone.com during the day, I don't think about it for two seconds at night and on the weekends.
How many times do I have to reiterate - I think too many people have become complacent with their canopy patterns. I think too many people take for granted what is below or behind them and don't actually take a real good look before performing maneuvers. I've seen this with my own eyes in the past ten years, I've seen it go downhill. I've seen alot more people cut off this year than I did last year. This is my point - what the hell is so difficult to understand about what I am trying to say. Look "AFF1 student" (not you Rick, just saying in general), don't take for granted the airspace you are in or the airspace you are about to spiral down into, don't plan ahead of time that the airspace will be clear and free. Look around, look around again, look around again, look some more.
It is so funny how DZ.com posts can turn into personal battles, you think that is what I am engaged in which couldn't be further from the truth. I am trying to get people to realize that planning is great and all, but don't plan for something under canopy when factors are constantly changing ALL THE TIME. The powerlines otoh, can generally be planned for within say 4-5 miles of a given DZ if they have a decent aerial photo.
My only intent is safety, to see a jumper jump another day, to see a jumper NOT collide with another jumper under canopy ever again because he or she planned that no one would be where they just spiraled to.
I sincerely ask this question to all, are my intentions wrong? Does my poll not attempt to get people to realize that planning for other canopies is not as safe as actually looking for them?
-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --
I could care less about winning shit my friend, trust me - while I do enjoy dropzone.com during the day, I don't think about it for two seconds at night and on the weekends.
How many times do I have to reiterate - I think too many people have become complacent with their canopy patterns. I think too many people take for granted what is below or behind them and don't actually take a real good look before performing maneuvers. I've seen this with my own eyes in the past ten years, I've seen it go downhill. I've seen alot more people cut off this year than I did last year. This is my point - what the hell is so difficult to understand about what I am trying to say. Look "AFF1 student" (not you Rick, just saying in general), don't take for granted the airspace you are in or the airspace you are about to spiral down into, don't plan ahead of time that the airspace will be clear and free. Look around, look around again, look around again, look some more.
It is so funny how DZ.com posts can turn into personal battles, you think that is what I am engaged in which couldn't be further from the truth. I am trying to get people to realize that planning is great and all, but don't plan for something under canopy when factors are constantly changing ALL THE TIME. The powerlines otoh, can generally be planned for within say 4-5 miles of a given DZ if they have a decent aerial photo.
My only intent is safety, to see a jumper jump another day, to see a jumper NOT collide with another jumper under canopy ever again because he or she planned that no one would be where they just spiraled to.
I sincerely ask this question to all, are my intentions wrong? Does my poll not attempt to get people to realize that planning for other canopies is not as safe as actually looking for them?
-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --
funks 1
Freakydiver - Chill out and relax a little bit.
I will never relax about safety.
Ever.
I am sick and tired of people relaxing about safety as I have seen the trend go in ten years. Again, Funks, my only intent is to perhaps help one jumper be a safer jumper. If you have a problem with that, perhaps you shouldn't be in this sport at all.
If I see a fucking trend in the sport, why not bring it to the attention of other jumpers just for the small chance that one person might learn from it?
BTW bud - why no numbers in your profile?
-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --
Ever.
I am sick and tired of people relaxing about safety as I have seen the trend go in ten years. Again, Funks, my only intent is to perhaps help one jumper be a safer jumper. If you have a problem with that, perhaps you shouldn't be in this sport at all.
If I see a fucking trend in the sport, why not bring it to the attention of other jumpers just for the small chance that one person might learn from it?
BTW bud - why no numbers in your profile?
-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --
Quote
No offense, but it's a bogus question. They're both equally easy to PLAN for....
How????
How can you possibly plan equally when you have no clue < who / how / when / why / if > someone heads towards you < spiralling / turning / cutting you off / spinning > under a canopy? You KNOW FOR A FACT where power lines are and you stay the hell away!!
Simple as that.
Theres too many variables to effectively plan to avoid other canopies. All you can do is stay aware and keep your eyes open, whereas theres only 1 variable you need to be able to plan effectively to avoid power lines - you need to know where they are.
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"Ive given up on sigs cos I make a mess of them!"
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Hi Beavis,
Haven't seen you in awhile and then I walk into this crap... Not to say that what you are trying to get across is crap, but you're getting violent... Not the Beav I remember! I think that it is safe to say that we all know that the powerlines aren't going to jump in front of us on landing, or swoop down fom the heavens and clip our canopies... It is harder to judge what other canopies are doing or going to do. I make it a rule to look at all the people in the plane and try to predict their landings (you start to know peoples landing patterns after awhile, who swoops, who comes in straight, who crosswinds it, yadda yadda) and then just try to watch where your going! But on the other side, you know my dz and if I need to land across the street in the field, I damn well know where those powerlines are and I'm still going to try to land close to the road and be as safe as I can. It's not hard to miss the giant poles holding the powerlines from at least 100 ft!
It's great to talk about safety, but no one will listen or take you seriously if your going to be mean about it! 
Haven't seen you in awhile and then I walk into this crap... Not to say that what you are trying to get across is crap, but you're getting violent... Not the Beav I remember! I think that it is safe to say that we all know that the powerlines aren't going to jump in front of us on landing, or swoop down fom the heavens and clip our canopies... It is harder to judge what other canopies are doing or going to do. I make it a rule to look at all the people in the plane and try to predict their landings (you start to know peoples landing patterns after awhile, who swoops, who comes in straight, who crosswinds it, yadda yadda) and then just try to watch where your going! But on the other side, you know my dz and if I need to land across the street in the field, I damn well know where those powerlines are and I'm still going to try to land close to the road and be as safe as I can. It's not hard to miss the giant poles holding the powerlines from at least 100 ft!
It's great to talk about safety, but no one will listen or take you seriously if your going to be mean about it! If I had wings... I would fly...
Quoteno one will listen or take you seriously if your going to be mean about it!
I dont think Freakydiver was being 'mean'. I just think that a few people didnt read the question correctly and this understandably pissed him off a bit.
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"Ive given up on sigs cos I make a mess of them!"
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billvon 2,990
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>is it easier to understand that powerlines generally run parellel to a
> road and plan to avoid them knowing that or is it easier to plan for
> the movements of another canopy pilot that you may or may not
> see no matter how swiveled your head is.
Plan for? The power lines; they don't move and you can look at them on the ground. See? The other canopy. Our eyes are designed to pick out a moving obect against a stationary backdrop; it's easy to see canopies if you look for them. It is often hard, OTOH, to see power lines. You can look for poles, but service entrances and the like don't neccessarily follow the poles. And many poles (light poles) have no power lines on them. That might lead you to risk a tree landing even when the parking lot is free of wires, which is bad.
> road and plan to avoid them knowing that or is it easier to plan for
> the movements of another canopy pilot that you may or may not
> see no matter how swiveled your head is.
Plan for? The power lines; they don't move and you can look at them on the ground. See? The other canopy. Our eyes are designed to pick out a moving obect against a stationary backdrop; it's easy to see canopies if you look for them. It is often hard, OTOH, to see power lines. You can look for poles, but service entrances and the like don't neccessarily follow the poles. And many poles (light poles) have no power lines on them. That might lead you to risk a tree landing even when the parking lot is free of wires, which is bad.
Quote
Plan for? The power lines; they don't move and you can look at them on the ground.
Question answered!!!
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"Ive given up on sigs cos I make a mess of them!"
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Sorry - I tend to get defensive when someone is on the offensive. To all threaders involved in this thread - I will admit I did get angry. I apologize for this. Also, I don't think I was being mean about my point, just how someone was attacking it which IMHO was not called for in this thread (Kallend and SkydiveRick). I don't think its a loaded question as Kallend suggested (which pisses me off because it isn't remotely my intent) nor do I think I'm attempting to win any arguments which is what SkydiverRick suggested. You are very right tho SG, I shouldn't get pissed off and for that I apologize directly to Kallend and Rick as well as Funks.
Anyhow - I'm comin home to get married tomorrow, Fish and Toad and Stevie Brown and I are jumping in. Then I'm off to Aruba for a week. Then I'll be up by you all for some fun jumping!! Drop me a PM as I'd LOVE to see you and do a few jumps which cha.
-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --
Anyhow - I'm comin home to get married tomorrow, Fish and Toad and Stevie Brown and I are jumping in. Then I'm off to Aruba for a week. Then I'll be up by you all for some fun jumping!! Drop me a PM as I'd LOVE to see you and do a few jumps which cha.
-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --
I dont think Freakydiver was being 'mean'. I just think that a few people didnt read the question correctly and this understandably pissed him off a bit.
Quote
I know, there are just such bad vibes running with this thread, and it might turn some people off of a (good) discussion on safety. I should of maybe rephrased the "mean" part. SorryIf I had wings... I would fly...
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
Well put Bill. My I ask, does my line of thinking make sense to you - i.e. one should never plan for canopies whereabouts, but constantly be on the lookout for them, while generally a landing area can safely be scoped out and decided upon given some average facts like there probably isn't powerlines in the middle of a field?
Just wondering...
Anyhow - blue ones everyone!
-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --
Just wondering...
Anyhow - blue ones everyone!
-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --
Guys - I was definately being mean - heh, if someone is a smartass in my thread, it pisses me off and I get angry. I admitted and admit to it. I will attempt to grow as a human now and reduce the anger level I allow myself to get to.
-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --
-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --
Married, heh? Thats great! Who's the lucky girl? Your jumping into your wedding, thats awesome too. It would be great to see you... I will be around the dz almost everyday... Make sure to come out there for the "talk Smack Hybrid Tuesdays"! LOTS of Fun! What day will you be back from your hunnymoon and over to the dz? I'll make sure I make it there. I know that Toad usually comes out on wed or thur... let me know!
If I had wings... I would fly...
Hey check that 'Messages' link up top underneat News and Calendar...
-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --
-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --
-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --
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