ernokaikkonen 0 #1 October 10, 2003 I remember hearing a quote that the handles on a(6-handle) tandem rig can be pulled in 720 different orders, and that only just over 100 of those combinations are survivable. I started thinking about this and it didn't really make sense to me, so I looked in to it. I generated a list of the possible (120)combinations on a 5-handle(Strong) rig, and(not going through them all 1 by 1, just guestimating), it seems to me that about 1/3 of the combinations will result in a clean deployment, 1/3 may cause an entanglement, and 1/3 will likely cause an entanglement. This assuming that all handles are pulled no matter what. Including the combinations where not all handles are pulled makes things even more complicated of course. So the point of my post is; Does adding a sixth handle to the system dramatically decrease your chances of survival if you pull the wrong handles, or is the "100 survivable combinations" quote wrong? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #2 October 10, 2003 QuoteI remember hearing a quote that the handles on a(6-handle) tandem rig can be pulled in 720 different orders, and that only just over 100 of those combinations are survivable. I started thinking about this and it didn't really make sense to me, so I looked in to it. I generated a list of the possible (120)combinations on a 5-handle(Strong) rig, and(not going through them all 1 by 1, just guestimating), it seems to me that about 1/3 of the combinations will result in a clean deployment, 1/3 may cause an entanglement, and 1/3 will likely cause an entanglement. This assuming that all handles are pulled no matter what. Including the combinations where not all handles are pulled makes things even more complicated of course. So the point of my post is; Does adding a sixth handle to the system dramatically decrease your chances of survival if you pull the wrong handles, or is the "100 survivable combinations" quote wrong? The number of permutations for pulling ALL handles is n!, so you have 5! = 120 & 6! = 720. If you stop after pulling a limited number of handles, the number becomes 145 for a five handle system and 1116 for a six handle system (assuming I used Excel correctly). The number of sequences that will result in a clean deployment is not so simple to generate. The function of the new handle and its effect on the various deployment modes would have to be considered in generating the list of surviveable sequences. I don't know enough about tandem gear to speculate. Any way you cut it, it isn't just another skydive. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #3 October 10, 2003 One has to consider the AAD a handle also. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #4 October 10, 2003 Well, look at the Sigma. If you don't toss the drogue (handle #1), then the 2 drogue releases won't fire. You can sit there an pull them all day, but if it was packed right, there is a locking pin holding the drogue release pin in place. That is a great safety feature. So no drogue, 2 handles aren't "live" yet, so you're left with 3 handles. 2 of them pull the reserve (the reserve and the crystal ball), one is your cutaway. If you pull the cutaway handle first, that won't really matter, just so long as you pull one of the reserve handles. In that scenerio, though, the cypres would eventually fire, if nothing was done. RWS has a big flow chart that has all the possible different pull combinations somewhere on their website. It was shown to me during the RWS tandem course and obviously, I'm not going to take the time to go through all of them here...--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #5 October 10, 2003 I'll never remember all these numbers in freefall. I, 1) Throw the drouge - regardless. 2) release the drouge 3) release the drouge if that doesn't work. (2nd handle) 4) Cutaway. 5) Pull reserve (Either side - depending on disablement or not. I have only 700 Tandems - and 7 Tandem reserve rides. I don't own, pack or maintain the gear in case you're wondering. All I can advise is mentally tick them off after exit - know what comes next - and practice finding them in freefall. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #6 October 10, 2003 QuoteSo no drogue, 2 handles aren't "live" yet, so you're left with 3 handles. 2 of them pull the reserve (the reserve and the crystal ball), Dave, as you know because you took part in the thread, the Sigma shouldn't have a crystal ball. QuoteRWS has a big flow chart that has all the possible different pull combinations somewhere on their website. (and for Erno's benefit) http://www.relativeworkshop.com/tandem/presentations/sigma_files/frame.htm#slide0022.htmSkydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #7 October 10, 2003 New Sigmas have no crystal ball. Not unless you order one without a Skyhook. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #8 October 10, 2003 Yeah, IF it has a Skyhook. Otherwise they'll have Cyrstal balls still on them (older models).--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #9 October 10, 2003 Rhetorical question: Why would anyone order a Sigma WITHOUT a Skyhook? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #10 October 10, 2003 QuoteWhy would anyone order a Sigma WITHOUT a Skyhook? Case in point... Due to the fact that we need the limited supply of rigs we have and are having to ship them off one at a time to get done... But, I agree with you, the Skyhook has to be one of the best improvements for a tandem in the past 2 years...well, since the Sigma came out and took care of a lot of issues with the overall theme of this thread.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #11 October 11, 2003 This is an advantage of the Racer 2K3 Tandem, only four handles (24 combinations). The emergency procedure is the same in all cases. Deploy the drogue, pull left drogue release, pull right drogue release, pull cutaway (drogue release also), pull reserve handle. Simplicity is a wonderful thing. Also the Skyhook only works if the main is out. If the drogue is not deployed (common problem), horseshoe, drogue-in-tow, or reserve deployment only, the skyhook serves no purpose. It is not as complicated as it sounds since all tandems start with the drogue deployment. It does not matter which drogue release (left or right) you use. You have to remember that the emergency procedures are also a redundant check off list of procedures that you may have already completed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #12 October 11, 2003 Uhm, isn't that a 5 handle system? 1) drogue 2) Prim drogue release 3) Sec. drogue release 4) Cutaway 5) Reserve ripcord The same number as the new Sigma rig?The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #13 October 12, 2003 QuoteNew Sigmas have no crystal ball. Not unless you order one without a Skyhook. You cant order a new Sigma without the Skyhhok they are standard now, also with Vector student rigs. Cool huh? Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #14 October 13, 2003 Does the Vector tandem incorporate a drouge release into the cutaway handle? I know the Racer tandem does...-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #15 October 13, 2003 QuoteDoes the Vector tandem incorporate a drouge release into the cutaway handle? No. I have heard Bill Booth address this question in his Sigma presentation at PIA 2001 . . . he doesn't want to add more friction to the cutaway equation. I know that the newer Strong rigs have this mod, though.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #16 October 14, 2003 >Rhetorical question: Why would anyone order a Sigma WITHOUT a Skyhook? Cause it's really new? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lug 4 #17 October 16, 2003 QuoteRhetorical question: Why would anyone order a Sigma WITHOUT a Skyhook?[/reply For the same reason there are instructors who, disconnect the RSL. If there is a spinning Malfunction, they want to recover or get to a favorable position before they dump the reserve. Remember the tandem fatality one or two years ago in California. Reserve entanglement with the body. Not sure which instructor or student. Outcome instructor lived student died. ]Memento Mori Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rigging65 0 #18 October 16, 2003 QuoteFor the same reason there are instructors who, disconnect the RSL. If there is a spinning Malfunction, they want to recover or get to a favorable position before they dump the reserve. Remember the tandem fatality one or two years ago in California. Reserve entanglement with the body. Not sure which instructor or student... I just spent an hour writing a reply to this...then erased it for personal reasons. I've refined it to this: I have first hand knowledge about that incident and I can absolutely guarantee you that the RSL was not an issue. I can't go into it, but that is a fact, not a speculation. This was one of those cases of "shit happens". There was no way to recover from that events leading up to the accident, without the luxury of hindsight. And even with that, I don't see an easy way out. Everyone involved did everything by the book, just like they were supposed to and it still happened. Such is life. IMO, the SkyHook had a good chance of helping out that day, but it wasn't in service yet. RWS hasn't exactly made it easy to retro-fit existing pre-skyhook rigs yet either, but hopefully that's coming soon! Consider this a public plea to RWS: Please help make it easier for working dropzones to get their rigs converted, guys! Someone loves you, so be careful out there, ok? "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #19 October 17, 2003 QuoteConsider this a public plea to RWS: Please help make it easier for working dropzones to get their rigs converted, guys! No shit! We either have to send our rigger up there for a class (which we can't really do right now) or be without one of our much needed rigs for a few weeks (which we really can't do). Although we desperately want Skyhooks on all of our Sigma rigs. Sort of like jugglying shargs of glass, it just doesn't work.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rigging65 0 #20 October 17, 2003 Hey, at least you guys are in Texas...we're in California, talk about a long ($$) haul to get shown how to install a part...of course, they were kind enough to offer to send someone out here to teach us. All we had to do was pay airfare, hotel, rental care, meals, etc. It's not like this is the first time RWS has come out with something innovative...I'm betting they can figure a way to produce a manual to instruct FAA certified Master Parachute Riggers on how to sew down some tapes...unless this device being touted as being "so simple" isn't all that simple?? Hopefully they'll change things and make it easier in the future. What good is a really cool safety innovation if you can't use it??? Come on guys, get with it!! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billbooth 10 #21 October 17, 2003 While the Skyhook is truly simple to operate, it is not that simple to properly install. For instance, sewing it on the bridle "backwards" would total your reserve in certain circumstances. For the first year or two, it is very important that everything be done correctly, so that the Skyhook does not get a bad reputation because someone who didn't know better sewed it on backwards, or made some other installation mistake. I did not license the three ring at first for the same reason. So later, when other people made it wrong ( i.e. improper dimensions, short loopssoft housings, incorrect housing endings, incorrect cutaway cable material, and on and on) at least jumpers realized that there was nothing wrong with the device itself, problems only came when people made it incorrectly. The Skyhook is just a baby, and I want to give it every chance for a long and productive life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #22 October 17, 2003 Then maybe it would be good to hold regional training seminars to train people how to install it correctly. Then you could have a conversion center in every region to speed up the process. Thank you for your response Mr. Booth, the Skyhook is a great device (I'm not sure if you got my e-mail talking about the intintional Skyhook cutaway I was able to do at the AOT Boogie when Egon was here).--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rigging65 0 #23 October 17, 2003 I couldn't agree more about making sure the Skyhook is installed correctly. There's nothing quite as bad as an improperly reproduced innovation! As has been mentioned though, it's pretty much of a massive hardship for us to either be without rigs (and pay shipping) for weeks at a time, or to send someone back there to sit through 2 days of schooling. Unfortunately, money is tight all over. We want to give RWS money and get what looks to be a very promising safety improvement in return, but we can't...doesn't that seem odd to you??? Regional instruction might be a good middle ground! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
rigging65 0 #18 October 16, 2003 QuoteFor the same reason there are instructors who, disconnect the RSL. If there is a spinning Malfunction, they want to recover or get to a favorable position before they dump the reserve. Remember the tandem fatality one or two years ago in California. Reserve entanglement with the body. Not sure which instructor or student... I just spent an hour writing a reply to this...then erased it for personal reasons. I've refined it to this: I have first hand knowledge about that incident and I can absolutely guarantee you that the RSL was not an issue. I can't go into it, but that is a fact, not a speculation. This was one of those cases of "shit happens". There was no way to recover from that events leading up to the accident, without the luxury of hindsight. And even with that, I don't see an easy way out. Everyone involved did everything by the book, just like they were supposed to and it still happened. Such is life. IMO, the SkyHook had a good chance of helping out that day, but it wasn't in service yet. RWS hasn't exactly made it easy to retro-fit existing pre-skyhook rigs yet either, but hopefully that's coming soon! Consider this a public plea to RWS: Please help make it easier for working dropzones to get their rigs converted, guys! Someone loves you, so be careful out there, ok? "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #19 October 17, 2003 QuoteConsider this a public plea to RWS: Please help make it easier for working dropzones to get their rigs converted, guys! No shit! We either have to send our rigger up there for a class (which we can't really do right now) or be without one of our much needed rigs for a few weeks (which we really can't do). Although we desperately want Skyhooks on all of our Sigma rigs. Sort of like jugglying shargs of glass, it just doesn't work.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #20 October 17, 2003 Hey, at least you guys are in Texas...we're in California, talk about a long ($$) haul to get shown how to install a part...of course, they were kind enough to offer to send someone out here to teach us. All we had to do was pay airfare, hotel, rental care, meals, etc. It's not like this is the first time RWS has come out with something innovative...I'm betting they can figure a way to produce a manual to instruct FAA certified Master Parachute Riggers on how to sew down some tapes...unless this device being touted as being "so simple" isn't all that simple?? Hopefully they'll change things and make it easier in the future. What good is a really cool safety innovation if you can't use it??? Come on guys, get with it!! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #21 October 17, 2003 While the Skyhook is truly simple to operate, it is not that simple to properly install. For instance, sewing it on the bridle "backwards" would total your reserve in certain circumstances. For the first year or two, it is very important that everything be done correctly, so that the Skyhook does not get a bad reputation because someone who didn't know better sewed it on backwards, or made some other installation mistake. I did not license the three ring at first for the same reason. So later, when other people made it wrong ( i.e. improper dimensions, short loopssoft housings, incorrect housing endings, incorrect cutaway cable material, and on and on) at least jumpers realized that there was nothing wrong with the device itself, problems only came when people made it incorrectly. The Skyhook is just a baby, and I want to give it every chance for a long and productive life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #22 October 17, 2003 Then maybe it would be good to hold regional training seminars to train people how to install it correctly. Then you could have a conversion center in every region to speed up the process. Thank you for your response Mr. Booth, the Skyhook is a great device (I'm not sure if you got my e-mail talking about the intintional Skyhook cutaway I was able to do at the AOT Boogie when Egon was here).--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #23 October 17, 2003 I couldn't agree more about making sure the Skyhook is installed correctly. There's nothing quite as bad as an improperly reproduced innovation! As has been mentioned though, it's pretty much of a massive hardship for us to either be without rigs (and pay shipping) for weeks at a time, or to send someone back there to sit through 2 days of schooling. Unfortunately, money is tight all over. We want to give RWS money and get what looks to be a very promising safety improvement in return, but we can't...doesn't that seem odd to you??? Regional instruction might be a good middle ground! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
