Reserve Too small?

[ChrisG 0]

I am troubled by a new injury category thats blossoming which is, 'Injured when landing a good reserve'. It seems to be happening more and more lately. The people its happening to are jumping highly loaded reserves.
These injured jumpers invariably give multiple reasons for their mishaps besides the obvious- YOUR RESERVE IS TOO FUCKING SMALL IF YOU CANNOT LAND IT SAFELY UNDER ALL CONDITIONS.
In their desire to 'look cool' with tiny rigs, some people seem to think that if they are jumping a highly loaded ellipitical, that its proper to have a reserve the same size or just slightly bigger.
I would like others opinion on this question-
What is the proper wing loading for your reserve?

More questions- Say you are at 1500 ft with your reserve open, how much more time would you have to find a good out with a 1:1 compared to a 1.3:1?
Which will fly the furthest, 1:1 or 1.3:1?
Which would be better in high winds-1:1 or 1.3:1?
Which would be better for a tight landing area- 1:1 or 1.3:1?
My opinion is that its stupid to have a reserve loaded more than 1.1:1
Whats your Opinion?

Chris

[bmcd308 0]

I agree with your general position that people in general should consider bigger reserves, but not this part:

>>My opinion is that its stupid to have a reserve loaded more than 1.1:1 <<

There are those who safely load reserves a good bit more than that. I would not call them stupid. And in high winds, you might rather have the 1.3 over the 1.1. It might give you more options in terms of making it to a good out.

Brent

----------------------------------
www.jumpelvis.com

[TALONSKY 0]

I agree you should not jump reserves highly loaded but I think there are some other factors beyond the jumpers wanting to look cool with a small rig. When I was downsizing, I found that most containers out there are made to have similar sized main and reserves. I think only Mirage and maybe Wings will really build a container for a large reserve and a small main. In my case I found after placing my order for the container that I had to downsize my reserve in order to have the rig built for my main.
I would love it if most cotainer manufactures would allow you to have a small main and a larger reserve.
Kirk

[ryoder 1,590]

I fully agree;
Also just looking at incidents at my own DZ over the last several
years, you also need to ask:

- How well can you fly your reserve with a dislocated shoulder?

- How would you like to land your reserve in half brakes, downwind,
and unconscious?

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[metalslug 36]

There have been two recent threads here and here in the Safety and Training forum on reserve canopy wingloadings.

It has been of interest to me to note that Mike Turoff, Instructor Examiner, USPA with 3300+ jumps has a Super Raven 220 ft² indicated as his reserve canopy.. considerably larger than his 170 ft² main canopy.

[ryoder 1,590]

  Quote

I agree you should not jump reserves highly loaded but I think there are some other factors beyond the jumpers wanting to look cool with a small rig. When I was downsizing, I found that most containers out there are made to have similar sized main and reserves. I think only Mirage and maybe Wings will really build a container for a large reserve and a small main. In my case I found after placing my order for the container that I had to downsize my reserve in order to have the rig built for my main.
I would love it if most cotainer manufactures would allow you to have a small main and a larger reserve.
Kirk

When I ordered my current rig, (Vector 3 M), the RWS had no
problem sizing it for a 218 reserve with a 170 main. (I'm 220 out
the door, jumping at 5050MSL).

If a container builder told me I needed to downsize my reserve
from what is safe, in order to accomodate my main, I would take
my business elsewhere.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[parachutesj 0]

  Quote

If a container builder told me I needed to downsize my reserve
from what is safe, in order to accomodate my main, I would take
my business elsewhere.

It might be safe. But never forget about a 2-out-scenario...

[diverdriver 6]

  Quote

I agree you should not jump reserves highly loaded but I think there are some other factors beyond the jumpers wanting to look cool with a small rig. When I was downsizing, I found that most containers out there are made to have similar sized main and reserves. I think only Mirage and maybe Wings will really build a container for a large reserve and a small main. In my case I found after placing my order for the container that I had to downsize my reserve in order to have the rig built for my main.
I would love it if most cotainer manufactures would allow you to have a small main and a larger reserve.
Kirk

Exactly how I feel. I had to downsize from a Tempo 150 to a PD126R when I got my new Micron since they said a Stilleto 107 would not go in any container bigger. I do feel that I am capable of landing a 126R just fine. But when things go bad I like for them to slow down. The slower the better. It was a choice I had to make because I wanted a new container and wanted to put a particular main in it.

My old Reflex was sized seperately for my reserve and my main. It was built to suit. That's part of why I bought a Reflex in the first place. I hope that some of the gear manufacturers could comment on this thread and maybe explain about main/reserve rig sizing and manufacturing.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[storm1977 0]

Why wear a cypres if you jump a highly loaded reserve?

Example: You get knocked out in FF from a collision. You can't pull and your cypres fires at 750ft. You wanted to load your reserve at 1.3, so now when your unconscience limp body hits the ground under a good reserve, you die from the impact. So I say F*** the cypres. Right?

The way I see it, the reserve is to save you not kill you.

Chris

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[Jimbo 0]

  Quote

Why wear a cypres if you jump a highly loaded reserve?

Example: You get knocked out in FF from a collision. You can't pull and your cypres fires at 750ft. You wanted to load your reserve at 1.3, so now when your unconscience limp body hits the ground under a good reserve, you die from the impact. So I say F*** the cypres. Right?

Wrong. I know first hand of at least a few cases where the Cypres fired because the jumper had lost altitude awareness; the jumpers would certainly be dead if it weren't for the Cypres. I don't know of a single case where the Cypres fired on an unconscious jumper. (Edit: Ths isn't to suggest that it doesn't happen, just that I think it's more common that the Cypres saves jumpers who have lost altitude awareness)

  Quote

The way I see it, the reserve is to save you not kill you.

The reserve is definitely there to save you, highly loaded reserves save many people each year, significantly more than than they kill.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[riggerrob 643]

How heavily you load a reserve depends upon which model you buy.
For example, many reserves designed in the 1980s don't fly very well when loaded much beyond 1.1 pounds per square foot. Even Precision Aerodynamics admits that Ravens don't flare very well you load them more than 1.4. Fortunately newer generation reserves are designed to flare more like modern mains, Newer designs include: Amigo, PD, R-Max, etc. The jury is still out on Tempos.
My Amigo 172 flies like a Sabre when loaded at 1.3, and i know several jumpers who have gracefully landed Perfomance Designs reserves loaded at 1.5.

[mr2mk1g 10]

Are argument is that you ought not jump a reserve that is a very different size to you main. If you are in the position of having two canopies out (then firstly you should consider leaving the sport cos your a dumbass) having two very different sized canopies will make you life drastically more difficult. Check out the PD website for their two canopy out evaluations.

Therefore if your on a small main, the disadvantages of a small reserve may be outweighed by the disadvantages of a reserve thats much bigger than your main.

Then again, I would just say, get a big reserve damnit, its your last fucking chance, why dick with it. If your worried about 2 out dont fucking pull low.

[rickjump1 0]

I think an unconscious jumper was saved by his Cypress at Lake Wales during a world record attempt years back. I think.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[DJL 235]

Why can't a rig be fitted with inserts that allow for a smaller main so you can have the size required for the reserve?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Jimbo 0]

  Quote

Why can't a rig be fitted with inserts that allow for a smaller main so you can have the size required for the reserve?

It can. It's not unhead of to either pad the main tray or the main bag in a larger container to accomodate a smaller main canopy and a larger reserve.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[nightjumps 1]

I jump an Icarus Safire2 169 main and a Raven 249 Dash M reserve. Wings Container. No problem.

[skycat 0]

  Quote

Check out the PD website for their two canopy out evaluations.

Also check out the 2-out tests that hooknswoop did last year and posted the results here. The PD tests were done with 2 very large mains, the ones hook did were with a Stiletto 97 and a PD 170.

Fly it like you stole it!

[billvon 3,067]

>Example: You get knocked out in FF from a collision. You can't pull
>and your cypres fires at 750ft.

90% of cypres saves are people who just plain forget to pull. So 90% of the time you should be in pretty good shape. If you're really concerned about that other 10% of the time, get a round reserve. It will land you just as well conscious as unconscious.

[tbrown 26]

It can. It's not unhead of to either pad the main tray or the main bag in a larger container to accomodate a smaller main canopy and a larger reserve.

[sundevil777 102]

  Quote

If you are in the position of having two canopies out (then firstly you should consider leaving the sport cos your a dumbass)

Perhaps you think that scaring your Cypres is the only way that 2-out situations happen.

One might be acused of being a dumbass for such narrow thinking.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Jimbo 0]

  Quote

Then again, I would just say, get a big reserve damnit, its your last fucking chance, why dick with it. If your worried about 2 out dont fucking pull low.

I had a situation over the weekend that could have very well ended up as a two out situation. I didn't pull low and I don't think I'm a dumbass. It isn't just low pulls that put people in that situation.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[mr2mk1g 10]

fair cop - yes there are other situations that can get you two canopies out

[Tonto 1]

Well I guess I'm stupid - but I havn't injured myself on my last 17 reserve rides - and the last 3 have been at 5000 ASL on a 120 loaded to 1.65. Maybe I'm just lucky.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[lasse 0]

  Quote

Are argument is that you ought not jump a reserve that is a very different size to you main.

But then that leads to the question what "very" different size is. The PD website doesn't give any information on that.

  Quote

If you are in the position of having two canopies out (then firstly you should consider leaving the sport cos your a dumbass) having two very different sized canopies will make you life drastically more difficult. Check out the PD website for their two canopy out evaluations.

Therefore if your on a small main, the disadvantages of a small reserve may be outweighed by the disadvantages of a reserve thats much bigger than your main.

Then again, I would just say, get a big reserve damnit, its your last fucking chance, why dick with it. If your worried about 2 out dont fucking pull low.

Assuming that people never make mistakes is a mistake when it comes to reserve considerations. If you've got your reserve out it means that you (or perhaps someone else have made a mistake). If you get your cypress to fire you either forgot to pull at right altitude (a mistake) or got knocked unconsious (you're not supposed to collide in free fall - a mistake).

[ChrisG 0]

Tonto,

Have any of your highly loaded reserve landings been in high winds, tight spot, tall trees directly upwind? If so, you truly are lucky.

Maybe I shouldn't have said "stupid".
More like-" Willing to take unnecessary risks so as to look cool with a tiny rig."

Chris