freefliers out first??

[burbleflyer 0]

No explanation?

[billvon 2,998]

>Splain me how dis is better dan FF first?

AFF and tandem typically pull very high, which a) gives them the ability to make it back from bad spots and b) gives them some vertical separation. You can't rely on vertical separation, but opening 2500-3000 feet higher than the previous group is a pretty decent buffer. And the ability to make it back from bad spots allows them to leave much more time after freeflyers (which you have to do on windy days.)

[burbleflyer 0]

Quote

>Splain me how dis is better dan FF first?

AFF and tandem typically pull very high, which a) gives them the ability to make it back from bad spots and b) gives them some vertical separation. You can't rely on vertical separation, but opening 2500-3000 feet higher than the previous group is a pretty decent buffer. And the ability to make it back from bad spots allows them to leave much more time after freeflyers (which you have to do on windy days.)

[Chrisky 0]

I assume the last post is asking why vertical separation cannot be relied upon, but is then referred to for FF going before AFF/TD.

The difference is:

between a 4way team deploying @ 800 m and freeflyers opening @ 900 m, vertical separation (which you can't rely on) is 2 seconds @terminal.
between freefliers opening @ 900 m and a AFF/TD opening @ 1500 m vertical separation (which you can't rely on) is 12 seconds @terminal.

You can't be sure to deal with a mal in 2 or 12 seconds, but you are less likely to fall into someone when forced to cut away up high.

When cutting away 100 m above an open canopy of another jumper (->no HORIZONTAL sep.), you will be under your reserve below him or have crashed with him. Not so if you're more than 500m above.
(Considering well trained emergency procedures)

If you always open @ 1500 m, i will have no problem whatsoever going first (before you that is) as a FFer.

Then again, you might still come crashing down on me having cut away. But the probability is just way lower because you have so much more time until you are on my level.

Horizontal separation is the key. Bellies out first!

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[base698 15]

I did most of my jumping at a drop zone with free fliers out first, and I never saw a problem either. I think this was a solution in search of a problem and more importantly I believe it to be such a gross oversimplification as to be useless at best. Most importantly I think it congests the landing area by causing the transition groups to open at the same time. If freefliers are out first then they have the exit separation + the extra time created by moving at a higher speed to move out of the way of the next group both vertically and horizontally.

I've had a belief for some time that the increase in canopy collisions incidents are at least in part due to mass adoption of free fliers out last. It congests the landing area by having the transition groups in both belly and freefly opening at almost exactly the same time.

Too bad you can't tag posts as controversial :)

There are other reasons I believed it to be silly, but they dwarf the main reason.

[grue 1]

Zombie thread! Kill it! KILL IT!

cavete terrae.

[monkycndo 0]

base698

I did most of my jumping at a drop zone with free fliers out first, and I never saw a problem either. I think this was a solution in search of a problem and more importantly I believe it to be such a gross oversimplification as to be useless at best. Most importantly I think it congests the landing area by causing the transition groups to open at the same time. If freefliers are out first then they have the exit separation + the extra time created by moving at a higher speed to move out of the way of the next group both vertically and horizontally.

I've had a belief for some time that the increase in canopy collisions incidents are at least in part due to mass adoption of free fliers out last. It congests the landing area by having the transition groups in both belly and freefly opening at almost exactly the same time.

Too bad you can't tag posts as controversial :)

There are other reasons I believed it to be silly, but they dwarf the main reason.

And since all freeflyers jump pocket rockets loaded at 9,900:1, the belly flying old farts jumping F1-11 canopies at less than 1:1 just clog up the landing area.

When will skydiving move into the 20th century?

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[chemist 0]

base698

I did most of my jumping at a drop zone with free fliers out first, and I never saw a problem either. I think this was a solution in search of a problem and more importantly I believe it to be such a gross oversimplification as to be useless at best. Most importantly I think it congests the landing area by causing the transition groups to open at the same time. If freefliers are out first then they have the exit separation + the extra time created by moving at a higher speed to move out of the way of the next group both vertically and horizontally.

I've had a belief for some time that the increase in canopy collisions incidents are at least in part due to mass adoption of free fliers out last. It congests the landing area by having the transition groups in both belly and freefly opening at almost exactly the same time.

Too bad you can't tag posts as controversial :)

There are other reasons I believed it to be silly, but they dwarf the main reason.

this is exactly what I was thinking, wouldn't you want FF out first so they don't catch up with the other jumpers and end up pulling at same altitude?

[Mac 1]

grue

Zombie thread! Kill it! KILL IT!

Nah, now I've read through the thread, I'm curious if the OPs relationship with the skydiver that throws unnecessary tantrums is still going...

What's the SP? 5-1 its not?

[Remster 30]

chemist

***I did most of my jumping at a drop zone with free fliers out first, and I never saw a problem either. I think this was a solution in search of a problem and more importantly I believe it to be such a gross oversimplification as to be useless at best. Most importantly I think it congests the landing area by causing the transition groups to open at the same time. If freefliers are out first then they have the exit separation + the extra time created by moving at a higher speed to move out of the way of the next group both vertically and horizontally.

I've had a belief for some time that the increase in canopy collisions incidents are at least in part due to mass adoption of free fliers out last. It congests the landing area by having the transition groups in both belly and freefly opening at almost exactly the same time.

Too bad you can't tag posts as controversial :)

There are other reasons I believed it to be silly, but they dwarf the main reason.

this is exactly what I was thinking, wouldn't you want FF out first so they don't catch up with the other jumpers and end up pulling at same altitude?

Do your research and find out why you are both dead wrong.

Hint: there are plenty of threads here.

Remster

[base698 15]

^

My argument is that doing it this way increases traffic, not that it prevents freefall collisions. The freefall collision risk can be circumvented by just adding a longer time between the transition.

[billvon 2,998]

>this is exactly what I was thinking, wouldn't you want FF out first so they don't catch
>up with the other jumpers and end up pulling at same altitude?

Because then they are more likely to collide (canopy vs freefaller) and be killed.

[base698 15]

Except for all those other variables like unintentional horizontal movement, picking the same line tracking and getting out at the exact wrong time.

The risk of collision is easily mitigated by adding more time at the transition.

[billvon 2,998]

>All of which are mitigated by adding more time at the transition.

And by putting freeflyers out last.

[base698 15]

At the expense of how many canopy collisions because free fliers on their new hot cross braced canopies zoom through all the belly fliers?

[billvon 2,998]

>At the expense of how many canopy collisions because free fliers on their new hot
>cross braced canopies zoom through all the belly fliers?

?? None that I know of. Putting freeflyers out last puts them physically quite far from the belly flyers, thus avoiding this problem.

Have you ever heard of such an incident?

[MikeBIBOM 0]

I don't know about canopy collisions, but I did one two-way FF jump at a place that puts FF out first, and after break-off and opening, one of the solo belly-flyers that came after us opened smack in between myself and my friend. Good thing neither of us decided to open in place.

[base698 15]

It's somewhat meaningless by itself and there doesn't seem to be enough data further back, but using the fatality database there seems to be many more collisions after 2004 as a proportion of fatalities.

There is also limited data as to what the parties involved in the collision were doing.

Quote

I don't know about canopy collisions, but I did one two-way FF jump at a place that puts FF out first, and after break-off and opening, one of the solo belly-flyers that came after us opened smack in between myself and my friend. Good thing neither of us decided to open in place.

I would attribute it more to the jumper in question moving around the whole jump than freefall drift.

[wicodefly 0]

skygirl1

GOOD OLD WISCONSIN!!! The cheese head state...
seriously.....that is how it is.....everytime I jumped I was out first.........now this is a smaller dropzone where the main progression is static line......and we jump out of a c-182..........but students got out first...

skygirl1

Where in WI? I'm in WI and in my DZ AFF students go last or before tandems with a few exceptions (solo jump of choice, etc.).

Chance favors the prepared mind.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

wicodefly

***GOOD OLD WISCONSIN!!! The cheese head state...
seriously.....that is how it is.....everytime I jumped I was out first.........now this is a smaller dropzone where the main progression is static line......and we jump out of a c-182..........but students got out first...

skygirl1

Where in WI? I'm in WI and in my DZ AFF students go last or before tandems with a few exceptions (solo jump of choice, etc.).

#1 - You do realize that this thread is over 9 years old, right?

#2 - She clearly said "main progression is static line" and "out of a C-182." S/L students often aren't going to full altitude. And get their own pass. Very different from AFF.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[wicodefly 0]

wolfriverjoe

******GOOD OLD WISCONSIN!!! The cheese head state...
seriously.....that is how it is.....everytime I jumped I was out first.........now this is a smaller dropzone where the main progression is static line......and we jump out of a c-182..........but students got out first...

skygirl1

Where in WI? I'm in WI and in my DZ AFF students go last or before tandems with a few exceptions (solo jump of choice, etc.).

#1 - You do realize that this thread is over 9 years old, right?

#2 - She clearly said "main progression is static line" and "out of a C-182." S/L students often aren't going to full altitude. And get their own pass. Very different from AFF.

Lol, obviously I read through it too quickly :) 9 years doesn't seem like that long to me anymore. Must be going senile.

Chance favors the prepared mind.

[MikeBIBOM 0]

That's deaths by collision, no doubt buffered by all those "cypres saves unconscious jumper" notices I always see. What about maimings?

Not everybody on the load is a formation master and can keep tight in-place formations. We were no doubt moving all over the place too, but unless he tracked up the jump run (which is also possible), that's part of what drift is.

[base698 15]

Quote

That's deaths by collision, no doubt buffered by all those "cypres saves unconscious jumper" notices I always see. What about maimings?

I'm not sure what you're saying. The data says to me total fatalities went down and collisions went up. Roughly in the same time frame free fliers out first started to become the norm. Using a flash movie that only takes into account one variable of the whole issue seems shortsighted. To boot I don't remember a rash of freefall/canopy collisions to spur the change.

Quote

Not everybody on the load is a formation master and can keep tight in-place formations. We were no doubt moving all over the place too, but unless he tracked up the jump run (which is also possible), that's part of what drift is.

For the sake of this argument it's only wind drift that matters.

[MikeBIBOM 0]

Actually, I'm not sure what the data says, it's not labeled sufficiently. 3 collisions in the last ten years? There have been more than that. 3 that resulted in fatalities, that makes more sense.

If a jumper isn't tracking along the run, then simply backsliding or side sliding shouldn't be enough to get them close to the jumper ahead of them without wind drift.

[Squeak 17]

MikeBIBOM

If a jumper isn't tracking along the run, then simply backsliding or side sliding shouldn't be enough to get them close to the jumper ahead of them without wind drift.

Want to bet on it

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