mjasantos 0 #1 August 1, 2003 Hi all, It would be interesting if Felix Baumgartner could release some real and accurate technical information regarding his accomplishment of Icarus II Project on the English Channel crossing, while skydiving with a 6ft carbon wings. My point here is that although such information has been kept confidential, now in the news we see so many different figures regarding the exact exit altitude, exact time of skydive (from exit to parachute deployment), exact horizontal distance covered while "flying", the exact opening altitude, just to mention the main ones. It would be important to have this figures released from its source, as now we can "play" with the numbers and according to the data we use, we'll get very different conclusions. For example, in some BBC articles I found so different informations as these: - Exit altitude: FL270 (27,000 ft), 30,000 ft, 9,000 m and 10,000 m (all these are quite different); - Horizontal distance covered: 21 miles, 22 miles, 34 Km, 35 Km and 36 Km (all these are quite different); - Time of "flight" (from exit to parachute deployment): less than 10 minutes, 14 minutes, 6m22s (all these are quite different); - Parachute Deployment altitude: the draw of the Icarus II project mentioned 1,000 ft (304.8 m), later was told he deployed at 1,000 m and now 4,000 ft (1,219.2 m) are being mentioned. What are the exact figures? Without their release from a secure source, it looks like the numbers are being "manufactured or built" to suit the desired results... we are watching in the news speeds from 220 Km/h up to 360 Km/h, but if we play with certain data already provided those numbers would be impossible to achieve. Thanks in advance if someone can provide the correct data for the Felix "Flight" across the English Channel. Congratulation to Felix on his achievement and for the media coverage provided almost in real time. Blue Skies! ----------------------------- Mario Santos Portugal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #2 August 2, 2003 I doubted trhat he would make it. I am very impressed with everything he did. He really deserves a lot of credit, and is to be congratulated. I have watched the news clips, and only wish I could have been there....a greatr jump....a great jumper. if anyone from his home DZ reads this, pass on my heartfelt congratulations to him. BILL COLE D-41 Canada Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonSanta 0 #3 August 4, 2003 A great achievement, but isn't it kinda cheating to bring real 'stiff' wings? If I say strapped, oh a hangglider, to my harness somehow, would I still be skydiving? :) Am just being an annoying jealous purist here I guess. Santa Von GrossenArsch I only come in one flavour ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivejersey 0 #4 August 4, 2003 yeah. fair play. that was a nice bit of hanggliding. When is someone going to skydive the channel then? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phonics1981 0 #5 August 4, 2003 I may be wrong here but ive never seen it mentioned anywhere that he "skydived" across the channel. Its always referred to as "The first unaided flight" across the channel. I hope someone does skydive across soon! ------------------------------------------------------ "Ive given up on sigs cos I make a mess of them!" ------------------------------------------------------ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rendezvous 0 #6 August 4, 2003 The CNN coverage said that he "skydived across the channel" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivejersey 0 #7 August 4, 2003 Does unaided flight include all the guys that have gone accross under canopy? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #8 August 4, 2003 Quote Its always referred to as "The first unaided flight" across the channel. Wasn't he "aided" by the airplane that brought him up to 30,000ft? (or however high it actually was) Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lazyfrog 0 #9 August 4, 2003 are his wings natural ??? I guess they can be considered as an AID... maybe someone would have to track across NAKED... there would be no confusion there...---------- Fumer tue, péter pue ------------- ourson #10, Mosquito Uno, CBT 579 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjasantos 0 #10 August 4, 2003 Quote I may be wrong here but ive never seen it mentioned anywhere that he "skydived" across the channel. Its always referred to as "The first unaided flight" across the channel. (...) Hi! Well, this type of jump wasn't obviously the typical skydive, making it look more like a "flight"... This could generate a big discussion thread... The terms skydive and flight have relationship but have different concepts associated with each of them... Skydive/Freefall - dive from the sky... To jump and fall freely from an airplane, performing various maneuvers before pulling the ripcord of a parachute... Flight - the ability to fly... not just to fall (although covering a huge horizontal distance), but also the ability to maintain or even gain altitude.... Being so, I would put Felix "flight" under skydive rather than flight group of events... since Felix exited the SkyVan, he was only able to "fall" (not maintain or gaining altitude to give full meaning to the flight concept), although he did it with a much slower descent rate, due to the conversion in horizontal speed generated by the lift of his wings... Assisted flight? He was wings assisted (6 ft carbon wings), but flight assisted? Again, he has only "fallen"... that's why he had to jump at high altitude in order to manage with its glide ratio (for every foot of descent, had 4 feet covered horizontally)... It's obvious these carbon wings are an extra for the human "flight"... IMHO, the wingsuits are also an extra for the human "flight"... a different one, but an extra as well. Regarding the "skydive" term, I have found it in many places (not my invention and not only in CNN)... I'll leave "just" these (with skydive or freefall in bold) "An Austrian with a carbon wing strapped to his back is to attempt to skydive across the English Channel" http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3106147.stm "Wings help with historic skydive... Felix Baumgartner celebrates after his successful freefall across the English Channel on Thursday... A skydiver known as “The Missile Man” on Thursday became the first person to cross the English Channel in an unpowered flight, free falling at up to 230 mph in the process." http://www.msnbc.com/news/946434.asp?cp1=1 "Un parachutiste autrichien équipé d'un aileron en carbone a réussi jeudi matin la traversée en chute libre des 34 km de la Manche entre Douvres (Grande-Bretagne) et Calais (Pas-de-Calais) après un saut à 9.000 mètres d'altitude." http://fr.news.yahoo.com/030731/202/3br5s.html "Man skydives across English Channel" http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s914507.htm "Looking a little like Batman, an Austrian stuntman wearing a carbon wing today became the first person to skydive across the English Channel." http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/07/31/1059480466666.html "Extreme sports fan Felix Baumgartner became the first person to skydive across the English channel" http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1009584,00.html "Felix Baumgartner - In Free Fall from England to France" http://www.aptn.com/aptn/headlines.nsf/0/3E78073BE61875D585256D6D004802E9?opendocument ... although it looked like a flight (and might contain flight elements), it seems that he did a skydive... a different one, but still a skydive... ----------------------------- Mario Santos Portugal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #11 August 4, 2003 Well, I think the distiction ONLY really matters if the jump/flight/whatever is to be considered as an FAI record of some sort -- which I doubt this jump/flight/whatever will be for a number of reasons. I doubt that Felix is going to be forthcoming with any sort of documentation to "prove" he actually made the jump/flight/whatever, since he's already accomplished his goal of media coverage and didn't have to prove anything to anyone in order to get it! There are glaring inconsistancies within what he's said and not even the video of the flight is consistant with what he said he did. I assume that virtually all of the in-flight video we saw was actually taken during practice flights and given to the media as "b-roll" -- which they happily gobbled up and reported as footage taken during the event.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjasantos 0 #12 August 4, 2003 Hi Quade, Entirely agreed! Blue Skies! ----------------------------- Mario Santos Portugal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeffD 0 #13 August 4, 2003 Given how cheap GPS's are, Why didn't he just wear one of those? Also a protrack or something? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjasantos 0 #14 August 4, 2003 Quote Given how cheap GPS's are, Why didn't he just wear one of those? Also a protrack or something? I'm led to believe that if the record achievement would be the real goal, several GPS data (from devices previously calibrated) records would be available for independent entities to confirm it or not. I guess that they might have been used, but would real data confirm the details released? I guess we'll never know... or will we? I'm sure Felix team knows it... they have all interest on that, regarding his future attempts on extreme skydiving achievements... I agree with Quade that the real goal here was to advertise the "Red Bull" brand, with a successful media coverage operation. I think that this was an awesome jump and my point on bringing this issue here was not to contest any type of record achieveement, but only to get accurate information regarding the jump itself... because that would be interesting to know and specially because the news released so many contradictions and sketchy details. I have not limited myself to post it here... I have contacted Felix through the e-mail form provided at his website (which is down now), asking him (or somebody of his team) to release such data (even if not audited by independent entities, as that probably was not the issue itself). Blue Skies! ----------------------------- Mario Santos Portugal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjasantos 0 #15 August 5, 2003 Quote Given how cheap GPS's are, Why didn't he just wear one of those? Also a protrack or something? As I have suspected, he used such equipment... This news just confirm it: "(...) Baumgartner was equipped with cameras as well as highly-advanced data monitoring technology to ensure that he could be tracked during his journey. (...)" http://breaking.tcm.ie/2003/07/31/story108070.html Blue Skies! ----------------------------- Mario Santos Portugal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivejersey 0 #16 August 5, 2003 still doesn't change the fact he hangglided across the channel. Nice. Very well done and all but he still used a ridgid winged hangglider. IMO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phonics1981 0 #17 August 5, 2003 Quote still doesn't change the fact he hangglided across the channel. Nice. Very well done and all but he still used a ridgid winged hangglider. IMO. Totally agreed. ------------------------------------------------------ "Ive given up on sigs cos I make a mess of them!" ------------------------------------------------------ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #18 August 5, 2003 Quote "(...) Baumgartner was equipped with cameras as well as highly-advanced data monitoring technology to ensure that he could be tracked during his journey. (...)" Which only makes me more suspicious of the entire record claim. Clearly if he had any of the recording devices we normally associate with skydiving records, then he also would have had the means of displaying the data to the press immediately after the jump. If he or one of his team didn't have a laptop at the event, I would be very surprised. So, why didn't he?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #19 August 6, 2003 "recording devices we normally associate with skydiving records," You need to think 'stunt' as opposed to 'record'.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #21 August 6, 2003 I dont care what you want to call it....I think it was a great stunt. He jumped from an aircraft and landed with a parachute. What he did between those to things is immaterial. I wish I had thought of it 20 years ago....but I congratulate you Felix....GREAT Jump....well done. BILL COLE D-41 Canada Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #22 August 6, 2003 Well, that's actually been kind of my point all along!quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #23 August 6, 2003 BTW, http://www.felixbaumgartner.com is back up and updated to include his channel crossing.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjasantos 0 #24 August 6, 2003 Quote I dont care what you want to call it....I think it was a great stunt. He jumped from an aircraft and landed with a parachute. What he did between those to things is immaterial. I wish I had thought of it 20 years ago....but I congratulate you Felix....GREAT Jump....well done. BILL COLE D-41 Canada Actually I didn't start the discussion about what to call to this jump... I first mentioned skydive, but phonics1981 brought up the point about skydive vs flight... I think the discussion derived from there didn't withdraw the merits on Felix on this performance over the English Channel. If you carefully read my post (in the begining of the thread), you'll see that my point was just about trying to know more regarding this jump, as I mentioned there, in order to get the exact data (figures) for the skydive / flight: - Exit altitude: FL270 (27,000 ft), 30,000 ft, 9,000 m and 10,000 m (all these are quite different); - Horizontal distance covered: 21 miles, 22 miles, 34 Km, 35 Km and 36 Km (all these are quite different); - Time of "flight" (from exit to parachute deployment): less than 10 minutes, 14 minutes, 6m22s (all these are quite different); - Parachute Deployment altitude: the draw of the Icarus II project mentioned 1,000 ft (304.8 m), later was told he deployed at 1,000 m and now 4,000 ft (1,219.2 m) are being mentioned. Also on that post, I have first congratulated Felix for his jump: "Congratulation to Felix on his achievement and for the media coverage provided almost in real time."... all this to say that by posting these questions, as I said earlier, I'm not trying to remove the merits of the jump, which is remarkable whatever the data is... my point was just the try to know a little bit more about the details involved... nothing else. Blue Skies! ----------------------------- Mario Santos Portugal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 569 #25 August 7, 2003 The BBC news coverage was interesting. For a start some comments "He skydived across the channel AT 30k" - i.e implying horizontal flight. "He jumped from 30k however his feats are normally performed from GREATER heights" - and then mentions 100ft base jump as the GREATER heights - That said I believe it did skydiving a great service it was fully on BBC radio news main bulletin points for more than 24 hrs - no promotion of death and danger - just the feat itself. Its not often skydiving gets such publicity in a positive light for the fun it is not just implying suicidal drug addicts.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
