Looking Before Turning / Canopy Pattern

[jumpgod 0]

How many DZ's would you say actually use a canopy pattern? I've jumped at 6 total and only 2 have announced and regulated a "left hand" pattern. The other 4 were a gaggle. Just a thought for the DZ's without one....

but here's more to my point....

Here's the reality check situation: 4 canopies approaching landing area. Lead canopy performing irratic maneuvers on downwind at 800' forcing other canopies in the pattern to turn to avoid minor possible collisions. Creates fixation on lead pattern canopy so other canopies do not notice canopies around them. Many turn to avoid the problem without looking. 2 canopies miss by 20' at 250' AGL.

....if there is a canopy pattern, shouldn't the lead canopy approaching the pees fly a straight line and give the canopies behind him/her air for smooth flight and approach?

[ladyskydiver 0]

We have a left handed landing pattern.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[chuckakers 425]

>>Here's the reality check situation: 4 canopies approaching landing area. Lead canopy performing irratic maneuvers on downwind at 800' forcing other canopies in the pattern to turn to avoid minor possible collisions.<<

What exactly do you call "irractic"? Also, there's no such thing as a "minor" collision at 800'.

>>Creates fixation on lead pattern canopy so other canopies do not notice canopies around them.<<

Sounds like you're trying to say that a skydiver is not allowed to make any movement that could distract another skydiver from doing his job. Ok, that's it...no more good lookin' chickees on the load!!


>> Many turn to avoid the problem without looking. 2 canopies miss by 20' at 250' AGL.<<

They were adding to the problem. The individual skydivers resposibilities do not change just because someone else "causes" the problem.

>>if there is a canopy pattern, shouldn't the lead canopy approaching the pees fly a straight line and give the canopies behind him/her air for smooth flight and approach?<<

The canopy below and in front (lead?) has the right of way - pattern violations aside. It's that way for a reason. Pretty self explanatory.


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Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[billvon 2,989]

>Here's the reality check situation: 4 canopies approaching landing
> area. Lead canopy performing irratic maneuvers on downwind at
> 800' forcing other canopies in the pattern to turn to avoid minor
> possible collisions. Creates fixation on lead pattern canopy so other
> canopies do not notice canopies around them. Many turn to avoid
>the problem without looking. 2 canopies miss by 20' at 250' AGL.

What's an erratic pattern? You should fly a downwind-base-final with all the screwing around done by the time you turn base. There's no excuse for not paying attention to other canopies, though, even if someone else is messing about.

[motherhucker 0]

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Creates fixation on lead pattern canopy so other canopies do not notice canopies around them

the only thing that "creates fixation" is the individual pilot. We're all responsible for ourselves out there--there are rules to help avoid incidents, but ultimately we/you/they are responsible for recognizing other traffic in the pattern and placing yourself in an appropriate slot in the landing pattern--then land safely.
I'm sure you've heard "keep your head on a swivel under canopy"--
"I Didn't see the other guy" shouldn't be an acceptable excuse for incidents under canopies.

[betzilla 56]

Quote

What's an erratic pattern? You should fly a downwind-base-final with all the screwing around done by the time you turn base. There's no excuse for not paying attention to other canopies, though, even if someone else is messing about.

I think of "erractic" as anything not easily predicable by the other jumpers approaching the landing area. At any point in the pattern, I think a jumper has a responsilbility to fly a personal pattern that other jumpers can predict and stay clear of. Isn't that the point of a pattern? For example, if someone is flying downwind, and is someplace between 200-500 feet, it's reasonable to assume that jumper will initiate a trun of some kind, in the direction agreed on, whether that be a 90 onto base, or a 180 onto final.

When I was jumping at a smaller DZ (4 canopies in the air), I used s-turns to burn off altitude quite a bit when flying my pattern. Now that I'm at a big DZ, I just don't want to do something people aren't expecting, both as a service to other jumpers, and to keep myself from getting hurt.

Being aware doesn't just mean knowing where the other jumpers are. It also means making it easy for them to be aware of you, IMO.

[chuckakers 425]

>>When I was jumping at a smaller DZ (4 canopies in the air), I used s-turns to burn off altitude quite a bit when flying my pattern. Now that I'm at a big DZ, I just don't want to do something people aren't expecting, both as a service to other jumpers, and to keep myself from getting hurt.<<

S-turns are still a normal/routine/valid and yes, predictable maneuver, regardless of how little they may be used by some pilots. Just because some (or even most) people don't perform them doesn't make them unpredictable or dangerous.

In fact, if I used accuracy type S-turns I would be justifiably upset if someone implied that doing them caused a problem for them or someone else (assuming it was the S-turns alone that they claim caused the problem).

I understand the frustration (but not danger) you imply in your comments. However, remember that the person below and/or ahead has the right of way...period. If a hotrod pilot gets out of sorts because a slower canopy was bangin' out S-turns on final, screw him. The existence of fast canopies does not change the rules for those who choose to fly slower ones.

But then again, what would I know about flying a highly loaded canopy?



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Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[billvon 2,989]

>At any point in the pattern, I think a jumper has a responsilbility to
>fly a personal pattern that other jumpers can predict and stay clear of.

I agree, but that becomes more and more important the closer they get to landing. If you have to lose altitude, downwind leg is the place to do it, not base or final. You have more room to dodge on the downwind leg.

[Zenister 0]

doing multiple S turns on final because you turned to late to make your designated 'target creates an unnessesarily hazardous pattern for everyone behind you, particularly anyone on a canopy faster than yours. This doesnt mean they dont have to be aware of the possiblity of you turning, but if you cant set up a downwind - base - final pattern without having to resort to major S turns that take up a MUCH larger space than a normal straight in approach you need to adjust your patterns 'leg' lengths, and/or land in a less crowded area whenever possible until you can...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[tictoc 0]

S-turns are still a normal/routine/valid and yes, predictable maneuver, regardless of how little they may be used by some pilots. Just because some (or even most) people don't perform them doesn't make them unpredictable or dangerous.


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[ianmdrennan 2]

You should read Missy Nelsons safety tip on the chicago site.

S turns while valid are inconsiderate to those behind you. While I have no problem with those that make them occasionally to fix altitude problems, I have a HUGE issue with those that use them all the time without re-evaluating their flight pattern for the conditions (and yes we have a small landing area so s turns can effectively cut off almost all jumpers coming in behind them).

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[chuckakers 425]

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You should read Missy Nelsons safety tip on the chicago site.

Now there's a bit of irony, eh?


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Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

• Quote

[ianmdrennan 2]

Exactly why it was posted.

Maybe we could all learn from that experience. It'd be a shame to let that go to waste.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[tictoc 0]

Quote

You should read Missy Nelsons safety tip on the chicago site.

Nice post

--------------------------------------------------------
Some one must go to the edge for others to be able to find it. But if you go be sure you can make it back.

[sducoach 0]

James 4:8

[Shark 0]

Does the lower canopy have the right-of-way?

[kyros1 0]

Always

[kyros1 0]

On SIM of USPA there some really explainatory graphs regarding landing patterns. It might be very difficult for everybody to keep a left hand pattern (in case that there are many canopies on the air), but I believe that we should keep some principals like no S turns, no spiraling down and try to keep some vertical and horizontal seperation. What I prefer to do is when I open I dont unstow brakes and I leave traffic below me. If somenone got a faster canopy than me I give him all the way to go and land first.

[Tonto 1]

We have a landing pattern but few people understand it. The zig zagging you describe in your senario is quite common. We're working on a program to better educate all our canopy pilots.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Every DZ that has even the smallest quantity of small, performance mains now has to do their best to work solutions. Here at Raeford we have a designated "high performance" lane and we teach, ad nauseum, that it's everyone's responsibility to keep their head on a swivel. While our landing pattern is generally left-hand, those doing HP landings generally end up doing a right 270 off of base from a higher altitude. It's my opinion as the S&TA here that this is a fine working solution, so long as I don't have any errant, non-briefed jumpers flying across the HP lane at 400 feet on base. I have just moved our HP lane out to what I believed to be a "safer" area, but now am reconsidering the move, as it put the entrance gates sqarely under the base leg for "non-HP" traffic; probably not too bright, but we will figure it out in a DZ meeting sometime this week. There must be some balance between your student, "standard", target accuracy, and HP traffic. The "old" rules of the air still apply, obviously, but everyone, including "the lower jumper" needs to be vigilant. Spiralling your Stilletto 120 down well below 1000 feet then toggle whipping it at 250 feet just to beat four guys on much smaller Velocities to the swoop lane is assinine. This, especially when you know that those other four guys throw their carves at between 700 and 900 feet. Stilleto man would have been much smarter to just chill out and wait for those guys to pass him at altitude and let them throw their turn. Then, he would still have sufficient altitude to setup for a clean run through the course without fear of being overrun. We have it even more freaky here what with the high number of demonstation teams practicing on the same DZ, plus the GK style and accuracy guys setting up for the tuffet. Communication is key to safety. Good briefings to new and visiting jumpers help, but gathering the masses for occasional meetings is what keeps "regulars" who have just not ever had to worry about mixed traffic before understand that there are new variables that affect all of us. As the equipment grows more and more different with each discipline (we used to all do CRW with whatever we had in our pack tray at the time), then so must our landing guidance. Communication and education are key to safety.

Sincerely,

Chuck Blue
D-12501
Manager, Raeford Parachute Center School
AFF/SL/TM/BM-I, PRO, S&TA

[freakydiver 0]

How big is this landing area?

I have YET to see a DZ where the landing area is so small there aren't any outs. I've landed in many a backyard as well...

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[FliegendeWolf 0]

I had no idea that S-turns were such bad juju. I guess I'll stop!

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[ianmdrennan 2]

It's not that S-turns are directly bad juju - so use them if you absolutely need to. But once the landing is done re-evaluate why you needed to use them (normally turning in too early) and try not to make the same mistakes on the next jump.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Enano 0]

Quote

Always

yep, but how many time have you see other canopies above you holding down the toggle to lose altitude and not respecting the right of way???

42 and don't forget your towell

[kyros1 0]

Very very rare.