CYPRES debates - my theory

[kallend 2,027]

I have read countless CYPRES debates here and on the Wreck over the last several years.

I have come to the conclusion that the two sides have a fundamentally different philosophy concerning rigs.

There are those who jumped in pre-AAD days, who consider the CYPRES to be a fancy add-on. While many of them use one, at some subconscious level, this group is uncomfortable since they see the CYPRES as taking away part of the skydiver's ethos. To this group, the CYPRES is philosophically different from the other parts of the rig, and all skydivers should prove themselves worthy by demonstrating that they don't need one.

And there are those who started jumping after the CYPRES became commonplace, and to whom the CYPRES is just another part of the rig, like the toggles or pilot chute. Sure, you can steer and land a parachute without toggles, and you COULD deploy your main without a pilot chute, but why would you want to unless there was a clear and obvious benefit to doing so? This group sees no clear and obvious benefit to jumping without a CYPRES.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[andy2 0]

i think everyone sees a few benefits of not using a cypres if they logically thought it out. Heres a couple that I thought of right off the bat:

-lots of money saved

-no chance of a cypres misfire obviously if you dont have one

Now I didn't say if those were more important than the possible benefits of USING one, thats up for you to decide!

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[kallend 2,027]

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i think everyone sees a few benefits of not using a cypres if they logically thought it out. Heres a couple that I thought of right off the bat:

-lots of money saved

-no chance of a cypres misfire obviously if you dont have one

Now I didn't say if those were more important than the possible benefits of USING one, thats up for you to decide!

There's always the chance of stuck toggles or a PC in tow too. Most parts of a rig have some potential to cause trouble.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 10]

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There are those who jumped in pre-AAD days, who consider the CYPRES to be a fancy add-on. While many
of them use one, at some subconscious level, this group is uncomfortable since they see the CYPRES as
taking away part of the skydiver's ethos. To this group, the CYPRES is philosophically different from the
other parts of the rig, and all skydivers should prove themselves worthy by demonstrating that they don't
need one.

This I amlost agree with. The part I don't agree with is I don't care that you prove it to me or anyone but yourself. And I don't like the fact that people don't see a fire due to you doing nothing or the wrong thing as bad...It is very bad in my opinion.

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And there are those who started jumping after the CYPRES became commonplace, and to whom the CYPRES
is just another part of the rig, like the toggles or pilot chute. Sure, you can steer and land a parachute
without toggles, and you COULD deploy your main without a pilot chute, but why would you want to unless
there was a clear and obvious benefit to doing so? This group sees no clear and obvious benefit to jumping
without a CYPRES.

Or, they are just scared to do it. Or they don't trust themselves, and rely on the CYPRES to save them if they screw up. And some do more dangerous things since they have a CYPRES. Some don't take a CYPRES fire as a big deal...They treat it like a normal malfunction. Not the last second save by a cool piece of equipment that you did nothing to save your own skin, but got a second chance thanks to a bunch of electrons.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Mad47 0]

The only good logical reason not to use one (or to turn it off) is when you plan to pull at minimum deployment altitude in crowded airspace. In situation like that you are closer to the CYPRES firing altitude than usually. However, when you jump with big groups there is always higher chance of freefall collision that can potentially knock you off.

[Chrisky 0]

I second that thought.

I think how people are viewing their Cypres largely depends on their safety attitude. If it fires for someone and he doesn't care about what went wrong, but wouldn't want to jump without one, he has a serious lack of safety attitude.
If someone really thinks about what went wrong and why, trying to avoid or react accordingly should the problem arise again, the attitude is safe.

I can understand that some people don't like others attitudes, but that's how the world is.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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some people don't like others attitudes, but that's how the world is.

The world is full of people judging and criticizing others just because they don't fit into their ideal of how and what they think people should do. I'm not gay, but look how society shuns the gay or transgendered communities only because they are different from the rest of us (and religious people are some of the worst at doing this). I personally would love to see less people judging others and just accepting them for who they are. But we don't live in a perfect world (and never will).

So back to the topic at hand, I really don't understand why all of a sudden there is this massive debate on the merits of using a Cypres. A woman is alive today because she jumps with one. Yet she's being criticized by some because she exited the airplane wrong, konked here head on the elevator, got knocked out and was saved by a $1000 device. Come on people, stop judging each other and try accepting people for who they are. This shouldn't be such a big deal as long as the person isn't harming anyone else.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Amazon 7]

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There are those who jumped in pre-AAD days, who consider the CYPRES to be a fancy add-on.

I jumped in the days of Belly warts.. rounds... and had 5 cutaways with Capewells... and I love my 3 ring Infinity that has yet to have a single problem with. I think I demonstarted my ability to pull and to cutaway and to save my life...Packing shit happened... I dealt with it.

I was perfectly happy to buy a Cypress and install it.. I can see the benefits of having one.. and know the disadvantages. To me it.. like my RSL is just another little something.. that makes the chances of me dying in this sport less likely.. People can argue all they want about certain pieces of equipment.. but in the final analysis.... more people have been saved by these imporvements to the equipment than to the disadvantages of freak occurences. Do I trust my Cypress.. yes.. far more than older AAD... do I think it will malfunction.. unlikely but if I am going thru 750 ft and unable to pull I think it will probably save my rather wide ass. Those that do not trust technology are a pain in my ass.. because we trust ourselves to technology on a daily.. hourly basis. If you dont trust your Cypress why the hell should you trust your Harness.. your parachute.. your reserve.. you throw out pilotchute.. the OLD airplanes... the cars on the road.. the furnace in your house the electricity courseing thru the circuits right under your fingertips of your keyboard.... or what happens if the damn monitor blows up in front of your face. Oh Rant done. Get a grip. its just another piece of safety equipment.. people sometimes do stupid tings...the AAD is to let em think about what they did rather than having thier family show up at the funeral home.

Amazon

[pilotdave 0]

The anti-cypres people (old farts) never seem to make any point. They come in all different groups. Some are afraid that an electronic device might fail, others believe that if they dont pull they deserve to die. Some are afraid of the possibility of an entaglement in case they pull low. They trust themselves to pull, but not to pull the correct handle (the reserve, if they're in cypres territory).

Cypreses are often compared to airbags. There's a lot of parallels. Airbags have been proven to be dangerous in some situations. What nobody seems to be able to show is that cypreses are proven to be dangerous in some situations. Yeah, a misfire could kill me. When was the last time a cypres misfired?

I really think a lot of people just think it's macho to jump with no cypres. They LOVE to tell people they don't have a cypres. Here in CT, there are no helmet laws for motorcycles. Same thing. The cool guys don't wear em.

Just because I use a cypres doesn't mean I have any reliance on it at all. Why would anybody think that I (or any other cypres user) take cypres fires casually? If I was having a high speed malfunction, do you really think I'd be shitting myself any less than someone with no cypres?

Dave

[Casch 0]

I just started jumping a year ago. And while I think it's smart to jump with a CYPRES, I'm not going to sit out a day of jumping just because a rig w/ CYPRES isn't available. When I get my own rig, I'll get a CYPRES when I can afford one. People always say
"$1200 is worth your life, there's no reason not to have one! If you can afford to skydive, you can afford a CYPRES!"

Well, I can't afford a cypres. Right now I make $300-$400 a month. Subtract gym fees, cell phone charges, car insurance ($114 per month), and that doesn't leave a whole lot...

I would say, if you can afford one, get it. There's really no reason not to have one if you can afford it. If you're planning on doing a jump where the unit may cause more problems, then leave it off. You don't HAVE to have it on, on every jump. If I could afford one, I would buy it in a heartbeat. Until then, I'll jump what's available.

[PhillyKev 0]

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Some don't take a CYPRES fire as a big deal...They treat it like a normal malfunction. Not the last second save by a cool piece of equipment that you did nothing to save your own skin, but got a second chance thanks to a bunch of electrons.

Is that true? Are there any examples of someone who treated a Cypress fire due to them not pulling when they are otherwise able?

Personally, I match Kallend's 2nd description. But if my cypress ever fired due to my f-up, I wouldn't be treating it lightly. I'd be overwhelming glad that I had that thing there to save my butt, and probably stop jumping.

Looking down on someone because they won't jump without a Cypress is silly.

I won't jump without a helmet. Does that mean I'm more likely to do things that will cause me to bump my head? No.

I won't jump without shoes. Does that mean I'm more likely to do things to cause me to land on broken glass? No.

[PhreeZone 20]

On the Airtec site there are a few documented cases of jumpers cutting away then just waiting for their Cypres to work.

I know a person that has had a few cypres fires and had the unit been on should have had another. The jumper liked freefall and always threw low to maximize it. A few times they waited too long to throw and got double outs. Once this person was doing a coach jump and held the grips on the student as their FXC fired on the student then proceded to have a double out themself. The fact of a cypres fire never made them think about their decisions it seems. Luckly this person really is'nt jumping anymore.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[PhillyKev 0]

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On the Airtec site there are a few documented cases of jumpers cutting away then just waiting for their Cypres to work.

Did they say that? Or did they panic and that was the result? If someone consciously waits for their Cypress to fire, I agree, that person is messed up. But, I don't equate that with someone who won't jump without one.

[PhreeZone 20]

July 1994:
Dortmund, Germany - Expert CYPRES: A skydiver was unable to pull her hand deploy. At about 2000 ft. she made the decision to deploy the
reserve but in spite of using both hands was unable to do so. CYPRES worked as expected and activated her reserve. She later said she fully
trusted CYPRES and had waited "patiently" until the appropriate altitude was reached.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Jimbo 0]

She also used both hands to attempt to deploy her reserve.

It doesn't say that the jumper gave it one try at 2000 ft and gave up. It only says that she trusted her CYPRES. Good for her. If I didn't trust mine I wouldn't jump with it.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Samurai136 0]

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To this group, the CYPRES is philosophically different from the other parts of the rig, and all skydivers should prove themselves worthy by demonstrating that they don't need one.

The cypres for, for me, is like a low pull contest in an emergency situation. In a crisis, my goal is not only to get the reserve out, but also to beat the cypres.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[Mad47 0]

I started to jump last year. I only got 350 jumps and I would never jump without CYPRES

The thing is people used to drive cars without seat belts and airbags. Would you want to drive a car like that on busy highway? I would not.

[Casch 0]

Comparing a CYPRES to a seatbelt is soooo off. When I drive up I-5 3 hours to the DZ, I'm trusting my life to Hundreds of thousands of other drivers. I'm relying on them NOT crossing over into my lane and hitting me. Otherwise, I'm confident in my driving. When I skydive, there are only a few people I'm trusting my life with and I'm fairly confident with them. And I trust that, willing and able, I will pull on my own.

[Jimbo 0]

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When I skydive, there are only a few people I'm trusting my life with and I'm fairly confident with them.

What happens when the guy from the skydive in front of you backslides into your group and knocks you silly? What about when the newbie freeflyer in the group after you comes crashing through your skydive? What about when you take your brand new CYPRES to your first boogie, or the mother of all boogies, the WFFC? I don't think that the seat belt analogy is so far off.

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And I trust that, willing and able, I will pull on my own.

Agreed. However, I'm not so naive as to think that I'll never need one either. One of these days, fault of my own or not, that CYPRES may save my sorry ass. That's why I bought it. And, for Ron, in the event that I do have a CYPRES fire, I'll take a long hard look at my involvement in this sport. I've said that since the beginning.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Mad47 0]

When I dive to the base on formation load I look around, scan the airspace and try not to cut anyone off. Does is guarantee that no one will cut me and knock me off? It does not. Does it guarantee that I will not make a mistake and collide with another jumper? It does not. In busy traffic on highway or busy airspace you can do everything right and still die. Overconfidence is a bad habit.

[sducoach 0]

Comparing a cypres to any other type of safety devise is sooooo right.

All of this is needless bickering.

Equipment evolves. Safety equipment evolves. It is simply "insurance". If you can afford it, buy it. If you can't, don't .

So many use "moral, as in the gay reference", political correctness as in the "old farts" reference, or other "reasons" to justify their position. Why?
Some just to argue, some to make excuses for their position.

So what. Go skydive, enjoy, hope you never need it however, if you do, I for one hope you have it. Then you can tell us all about your life changing experience. (This all comes from an "Old Fart Christian, so slam on!)

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[KATO33 0]

I suppose I fall into the second group. But i was taught not to depend on an electronic device... so I turn it on in the morning and I don't think about it again until the next morning or next weekend or whenever I show up at the DZ again.

My AFF level 1 taught me a lot about self reliance.
Under radio I hear "Turn right" I turn right "turn left" I turn Left "Pkl...k;oj;;" me thinking what did he say??!! "Pkl...k;oj;;" Now I'm waiting on the radio to start working again instead of flying the landing pattern I was taught. Result...landed off in a clearing of tall grass surrounded by trees... PLF I was fine. Lesson I learned no matter what it is My responsibility to maintain my well being.

Would I jump without a cypres? Yes after all it is up to me not Airtec. But I wouldn't criticize anyone who wouldn't. I'ts their choice after all Skydiving to me is about Freedom .

Blue Skies Black Death

[kallend 2,027]

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Comparing a CYPRES to a seatbelt is soooo off. When I drive up I-5 3 hours to the DZ, I'm trusting my life to Hundreds of thousands of other drivers. I'm relying on them NOT crossing over into my lane and hitting me. Otherwise, I'm confident in my driving. When I skydive, there are only a few people I'm trusting my life with and I'm fairly confident with them. And I trust that, willing and able, I will pull on my own.

What if it's a 140 way and you've not jumped previously with 120 of them?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,027]

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I suppose I fall into the second group. But i was taught not to depend on an electronic device... so I turn it on in the morning and I don't think about it again until the next morning or next weekend or whenever I show up at the DZ again.

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Quite a few people with that attitude have ended up with 2 out.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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[mikeat10500 12]

In some of my posts I may have come off just like you described in yours.
First off, I'm not really and old "fart" , cause I'm of the Cypres generation. I started jumping in '93 and Cypers had just became popular...and some of you remember why. I remember thinking I would never jump without an AAD.

" Some are afraid that an electronic device might fail,"

How much do I trust most AAD's...99%

" others believe that if they dont pull they deserve to die. "

Not me!

" Some are afraid of the possibility of an entaglement in case they pull low."

I don't like the Idea of dumping 2 at the same time or having 2 good squares humping each other.
But I often jump cypres equipped rigs with it turned on cause...I don't intend to be in the basement anyway(it's all dark and scary down there!)
But if I know for sure(as sure as I can be) that I'm not going low, than I don't need it.

" They trust themselves to pull, but not to pull the correct handle (the reserve, if they're in cypres territory)."

I trust myself just fine....no AAD, no RSL no Beebing
noise or lights and I lost my alti 3 years ago.
(I borrow one for student loads)
And I have 3 young kids.

"Cypreses are often compared to airbags. There's a lot of parallels. Airbags have been proven to be dangerous in some situations. What nobody seems to be able to show is that cypreses are proven to be dangerous in some situations. Yeah, a misfire could kill me. When was the last time a cypres misfired?"

I'm not saying don't turn it on...I'm saying don't go down there. And if you jump without and AAD long enough you know what I mean. Loss of altitude awareness or pushing your limits could kill you.
I have seen video of instructors chasing students
in and have 2 AAD's fire and 4 ways with multiple
fires(even the cameraman above). Most with 2 squares out. I don't go down there...so I don't really
need one.Although I will drive a vehicle without airbags I will not take the $100,000,000 Cypres challenge.


"I really think a lot of people just think it's macho to jump with no cypres. They LOVE to tell people they don't have a cypres. Here in CT, there are no helmet laws for motorcycles. Same thing. The cool guys don't wear em"

I wear a Protec on all jumps and it looks stupid....it's for safety..no AAD. Most of the students don't know whats in my rig.

"just bcause I use a cypres doesn't mean I have any reliance on it at all. Why would anybody think that I (or any other cypres user) take cypres fires casually? If I was having a high speed malfunction, do you really think I'd be shitting myself any less than someone with no cypres?"

To the best of my knowledge the top skydivers in the world wear AAD"s (Mostly Cypres). Most of the people I jump with wear AAD's.
This being said I believe I have witnessed the growth of a new generation of skydivers during my time in the sport...a different type of jumper.




I think TimBSky said it best:

"For those of us who started before the Cypress was available, an AAD wasn’t really an option. If you had one (FXC, etc…) people wouldn’t jump with you. Therefore, when we went through AFF or static line, we were aware that the minute we were off student status, we had to pull or we would die. There were probably many people who decided that this was an unacceptable risk and decided not to continue jumping. Today’s students aren’t faced with this added risk after getting off student status and some who probably wouldn’t have continued in the sport have continued jumping. I guess my point is that different people have different thresholds of acceptable risk. Does this make them reliant on the Cypress? Maybe. The number of Cypress saves today certainly appears to higher than the number of low-pull/no-pull fatalities in the past. Maybe the answer is better education about the consequences of a low-pull/no-pull situation and the possibility that the Cypress may not save you!"

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Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.