barrel rolls to check airspace before pulling

[andy2 0]

I will be jumping a slightly old vector 2 container, once i finally get enough money to finish the rig. So, granted that it is not "freefly friendly" is doing a barrel roll after tracking away from the formation right before pulling to check airspace a bad idea? I'm a pretty light guy, so I think once I get my track dialed down it will be pretty slow fall rate, if that makes a difference. Would you advise against doing this with an oldish container? Thanks.

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[skybytch 273]

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Would you advise against doing this with an oldish container?

Keep any velcro on the container in excellent condition and you shouldn't have a problem. Remember that people were doing things like back loops and barrel rolls and stand ups long before the term "freefly friendly" was ever coined.

What I'd advise against is doing a barrel roll when tracking away from a group if you haven't practiced and perfected it on numerous solos first.

[andy2 0]

thanks for the quick response lisa! Yeah, I'm going to take about 10-20 jumps after I get off A license perfecting things like tracking, turns, barrel rolls, etc etc.

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I would agree with Lisa concerning being comfortable doing your barrel rolls up high before you do them at pull time as I have a some what related story here.

I dropped by the DZ after work yesterday to hopefully get a jump in (I never jumped because not enough people were around). Anyway, I ran into a friend of mine from the same AFF class last year and he just finished doing his first reserve ride on the 2nd jump with his new gear (he bought beer for the DZ people and booze for the rigger). Anyway, it sounded like he couldn't find his hacky handle twice and did the right thing (go for silver). But after further questioning I don't believe the problem was finding the handle, it was that he's not all that current (he's got 34 jumps mainly from last summer) and both times he said he had bad body positioning during pull time and he ended up doing some sort of accidental barrel roll (apparently eating up valuable time and altitude). He's not sure exactly what altitude he was at when he went for his reserve, but after showing him some video of other low pulls, it looks like he was at about 2000 feet (or maybe even a little less). So could you imagine how much more anxiety he could have caused himself if he did all of this plus a not so well executed barrel roll?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[nightjumps 1]

This seems to be a subject of late and I'm not sure what started it. For years, we've been "Flat-Tracking" hard and aggressive from a formation while checking left and right in the track, then wave off and pull.

I assume that doing a barrel roll manuever at the bottom end of your skydive is to check above before dumping, but what started this and is it really logical to be doing this type of manuever that close to pull time?

Its always been the understanding that low man has right of way and if you're over someone whose tracking, change your angle and give them clearance.

Feedback please.

[TattooedMoFo 0]

It is very important and should be done espcially when in large groups, and you end up with people everywhere in the sky. Large tracking dives been the main culprit.
The low man may have the right of way but what if he is a few feet above you and can't get out the way before you dump???? Doing a barrel roll checks for this and gives each of you time to make quick adjustments.
I whole hearted agree with Lisa practice them by yourself or in a very small group, you wil be surprised how you can make a 180 degree turn without even realising it , if you are not good at it.
For the Vector2 there is a few mods that rigger could do for you to help keep flaps down, but barrels rolls and the like shouldn't force a premature deployment.

[TattooedMoFo 0]

Check this link out, don't know how to make it clicky but if it doesn't work do a search on Satan666 (usernames) posts for a post called Learn a lesson.
Their are 4 pics from a person above him, which shows why a barrel roll is important.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=207075;search_string=search_string;#207075

[CrazyIvan 0]

Clicky!!

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=207075;search_string=search_string;#207075

__________________________________________
Blue Skies and May the Force be with you.

[robskydiv 0]

Nightjump, I think that you are right on he money.
Sadly, however, there are still those who wouldn't yield when higher, for some reason or another. As for me, I'll continue doing the method you described. I can usually count everyone on the load at breakoff. But If I was at a boogie, maybe I'd incorporate that barrel roll at the middle of my track.

[Kris 0]

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Its always been the understanding that low man has right of way and if you're over someone whose tracking, change your angle and give them clearance.

True, low person does have the right of way, but accidents still happen because other people still fail to pay attention.

If I'm on a larger dive, and I am not sure where everyone is, I will pull a barrel-roll halfway through my track to take a look.

If I do it at my halfway point I can immediately modify my direction. If I did it at the end of my track that would mean that I would possibly have to take my deployment lower if someone was above me.

At 2000 feet I have no friends and my PC is coming out.

Now, to Andy who mentioned taking 10-20 jumps to practice. Tracking is a survival skill. Period. Always work on perfecting your track on every dive. Keep thinking, "Flatter, slower downward, faster forwards." That should be your mantra.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[andy2 0]

[QUOTE]Its always been the understanding that low man has right of way and if you're over someone whose tracking, change your angle and give them clearance.
[/QUOTE]

I have heard this too, but think about it for a second, if you pull your parachute and someone slams into you at 120+ mph you're going to be hurting or dead. This is more for MY protection than the others. Of course, after my own life, I value each and every life I am skydiving with, just I am a little biased about my own

Kris wrote:
[QUOTE]At 2000 feet I have no friends and my PC is coming out[/QUOTE]

This is what I have been taught, my instructor told me on my FJC, "no friends below 2,000 feet".

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[Iflyme 0]

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Tracking is a survival skill. Period. Always work on perfecting your track on every dive. Keep thinking, "Flatter, slower downward, faster forwards." That should be your mantra.

Agreed ... I submit that it is a good idea to devote a jump entirely to tracking every now and then. I jumped for the first time since February today ... only got to 6 grand 'cause of clouds, but I did work of the track, even though I was alone.

[nightjumps 1]

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If I do it at my halfway point I can immediately modify my direction.

1. What if someone is over you; you see them, they look down and see you; you roll over and modify your direction at the same time and direction they modify = bad at the bottom end.

2. What if someone is over you; you see them, they look down and see you; you stay on your back and modify your direction to ensure a different direction; aren't you getting a little low at pull time to be doing those manuevers = bad.

I "think" [remaining open-minded] I'll play by the tried & true rules - if I follow the "mantra" and track flatter, more forward, then I gain more valuable distance. I'll be waving at 2500 & throwing at 2k.

If you're tracking over me, while you're looking left and right, look down too. If I'm below you, please throw an arm down and veer your azimuth a few degrees and continue tracking for distance.

Sorry, I'm just not there with the logic yet.

[tbrown 26]

Unless you've REALLY, and I mean REALLY got your barrel roll in a track routine down better than you think, there's just too much going on for it. Even if people are breaking off and pulling higher to allow for canopy snivel, the time and thousands of feet are going by pretty fast at this point. There isn't anybody up there you won't see by twisting your neck just a little left and right. Give a good look, a good wave, and toss it. Trying to coordinate fancy barrel rolls at the low end of the dive could result in one or both canopies out below a grand.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[TattooedMoFo 0]

I "think" [remaining open-minded] I'll play by the tried & true rules - if I follow the "mantra" and track flatter, more forward, then I gain more valuable distance. I'll be waving at 2500 & throwing at 2k.
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It's not always black and white like that. I've had to throw out at 1400 because of a jump go horribly wrong. Throwing out at that height saved my life and 2 others who happened to be directly above me at pull time.

[CRWBUDDHA 0]

Perhaps one might consider the impact of "Hammer Time"...........

"One can take a perfectly good procedure and change it till it breaks."

The sky is never large enough to allow a sparrow to demonstrate his prowess of flight to a crow........

CRWBUDDHA

[nightjumps 1]

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"One can take a perfectly good procedure and change it till it breaks."

Well said. I will remain open-minded and receptive to new ideas in the interest of safety,

[mjosparky 4]

If I'm on a larger dive, and I am not sure where everyone is, I will pull a barrel-roll halfway through my track to take a look.

If I do it at my halfway point I can immediately modify my direction. If I did it at the end of my track that would mean that I would possibly have to take my deployment lower if someone was above me.

At 2000 feet I have no friends and my PC is coming out.

I have been using this method, barrel roll at about 3000 ft. for over twenty years and find it works well.
Like anything else we do in the air it takes practice.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[FallingILweenie 0]

i usually barrel roll right before i dump when freeflying with more than 2 or 3 other people, or in a big jump where people are all over the place (like a tracking dive).
as far as the vector 2, i had one up until last fall that i freeflew in all the time, flying headdown, sitflying and everything else. i know people who told me i was crazy but i had the velcro replaced when necessary and the rig never gave me any real problems. of course, it just depends on the condition of the rig and your own personal comfort with it.

[andy2 0]

just to clarify the people who are saying they will pull barrel rolls halfway through, are you rolling onto your back and tracking for 2,3,4 seconds or so? Or is it just a quick barrel roll with hardly a pause on your back? Does anybody backtrack away from formation and then flip onto your belly to deploy?

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[oldnewbie 0]

I don't backtrack then flip back over, but one of my instructors when we flat tracked would be on his back, flying just in front of me and below me motioning for me to speed up. No matter how fast i would go, he would just speed up alittle more, waving at me the whole time. And I am a fairly fast tracker. The when it was time to pull, he would really speed up then. It was totally amazing how fast he could go, and how much control he had tracking

[steve1 5]

I can understand the principal behind a quick barrel roll, but I would think that tracking on you back during a relative work dive could be very dangerous. After all the low guy has the right-away at opening time, and you can't see below you if you are on your back for seconds at a time.
It seems to me that someone could come zipping in below you in a matter of seconds, and open, and you wouldn't see him, if you spend too much time on your back.

If you were jumping with some others you weren't sure of, maybe a quick barrel roll would be okay. I'd like to hear what others think on this one. I often look over my shoulder for a second at pull time, but my main focus is what's below me.....Steve1

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

just to clarify the people who are saying they will pull barrel rolls halfway through, are you rolling onto your back and tracking for 2,3,4 seconds or so? Or is it just a quick barrel roll with hardly a pause on your back? Does anybody backtrack away from formation and then flip onto your belly to deploy?

Andy,
I do just a quick roll with no pause. I was thinking, if you backtrack would you barrel roll to see whats under you? LOL

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[breadhead 0]

Zen, and the art of safety:

If you can't trust a rig for a barrel roll, why would you trust it while standing in the door, or during a funneled exit?

[andy2 0]

[QUOTE]If you can't trust a rig for a barrel roll, why would you trust it while standing in the door, or during a funneled exit?[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry, I am a complete novice in regards to...well everything skydiving I just wanted to know others opinions on it, as this point I have no way to form a well founded one of my own.

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...