sundevil777 102
PhreeZone 20
>Automatic Entanglement Device...that is what usually occurs...is it not?
Out of the last 8 years of write up's on fatilities worldwide only one where a reserve entangeled with a horseshoe that would have been fatal if it was a hand pull or cypres fire can be blamed in any way on an AAD entangement.
Back in the days of the FXC 12000 and the Sentinal accidental firings were more common. The Cypres has reduced the number of these to almost nothing.
Out of the last 8 years of write up's on fatilities worldwide only one where a reserve entangeled with a horseshoe that would have been fatal if it was a hand pull or cypres fire can be blamed in any way on an AAD entangement.
Back in the days of the FXC 12000 and the Sentinal accidental firings were more common. The Cypres has reduced the number of these to almost nothing.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
in reply to:
[If you are stupid enough not to pull...you are stupid enough to hook a good canopy in.
If you are stupid enough to get knocked out....you are stupid enough to get your neck broken in the same type of collision]
___________________
you got to be kidding. getting corked into or knocked out isnt stupid. its a random occurence with a probability only increased or decreased by selecting whom you jump with, but never omitted.
no one can truthfuly state ill never loose altitude awarness. however in your case if you did you wouldnt be around to know it. so i guess you cant loose.
even the most heads up athletes make mistakes and have accidents, this does not make them stupid, only human. stupid is seeing a saftey device as a sign of weekness.***
[If you are stupid enough not to pull...you are stupid enough to hook a good canopy in.
If you are stupid enough to get knocked out....you are stupid enough to get your neck broken in the same type of collision]
___________________
you got to be kidding. getting corked into or knocked out isnt stupid. its a random occurence with a probability only increased or decreased by selecting whom you jump with, but never omitted.
no one can truthfuly state ill never loose altitude awarness. however in your case if you did you wouldnt be around to know it. so i guess you cant loose.
even the most heads up athletes make mistakes and have accidents, this does not make them stupid, only human. stupid is seeing a saftey device as a sign of weekness.***
***Just in case there is someone out there I have not offended yet....I think putting 2 squares in your container and arming one with an AED is stupid too!
...but if you chose to anyway...always pull at the correct alt(I have to...for different reasons).
...but if you chose to anyway...always pull at the correct alt(I have to...for different reasons).
Quote
Do you really believe your own rhetoric or are you posting as you say to offend people. I have more jumps on rounds then you have jumps, if your profile is correct. But as gear improved I moved to squares, first my main and latter my reserve. I have spent several years testing parachutes, mostly rounds. By the very nature of their design they are prone to malfunction. To use one as your last chance by choice is not the sign of a man/woman with both oars in the water. Lastly, what was it that caused you to form such a low opinion of AAD's? jmhoMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals
QuoteI don't want an AED(Automatic Entanglement Device...that is what usually occurs...is it not? so lets get the name changed) 'cause....
A) They are very expensive.
B) I don't intend to use it.
C) It now seams to offer a faults sense of security(I did not always think that way)
What other reason could there be?
There are 9 million ways to die in this sport.
If you are stupid enough not to pull...you are stupid enough to hook a good canopy in.
If you are stupid enough to get knocked out....you are stupid enough to get your neck broken in the same type of collision. Just in case there is someone out there I have not offended yet....I think putting 2 squares in your container and arming one with an AED is stupid too!
...but if you chose to anyway...always pull at the correct alt(I have to...for different reasons).
Your opinions are very disturbing to me especially since your profile shows that you are an instructor.
Your point of view is calling this girl stupid because she got knocked out.. That is a personal attack.
Judy
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.
Ron 10
QuoteYour point of view is calling this girl stupid because she got knocked out.. That is a personal attack.
I would not call her stupid. But why was she the only one that hit the tail? She is lucky that she had an AAD, and that it worked.
I'm glad that she had an AAD, I am glad it worked, I am glad that she landed in a way that didn't kill her.
But she could have prevented the whole thing by a better exit.
Or do you not agree?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
QuoteQuoteYour point of view is calling this girl stupid because she got knocked out.. That is a personal attack.
I would not call her stupid. But why was she the only one that hit the tail? She is lucky that she had an AAD, and that it worked.
I'm glad that she had an AAD, I am glad it worked, I am glad that she landed in a way that didn't kill her.
But she could have prevented the whole thing by a better exit.
Or do you not agree?
You didn't call her stupid Ron that other guy did. She got knocked out. I was not there, I don't know the situation, but to quote Mike Mullins, "sometimes skydivers get excited and do stuff.". I thrilled she was saved and this turned out okay. But what these anti-aad people are saying is that they will NEVER EVER make a mistake, that they will NEVER have us for an aad. I like to try new things and jump with new people. Things can happen and that's why I prefer to jump with an AAD. I am not perfect, in fact I'm a bit of a klutz. I have jumped without an AAD and with. I will jump without an AAD, but prefer to jump with an AAD.
Apparently some of you never ever make a mistake and have zero tolerance for people trying to learn and making mistakes. Its pretty sad.
Judy
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.
QuoteQuoteYour point of view is calling this girl stupid because she got knocked out.. That is a personal attack.
I would not call her stupid. But why was she the only one that hit the tail? She is lucky that she had an AAD, and that it worked.
I'm glad that she had an AAD, I am glad it worked, I am glad that she landed in a way that didn't kill her.
But she could have prevented the whole thing by a better exit.
Or do you not agree?
She was fully geared and ready to exit at 2,000 AGL. That's apparently not a statement that you can always make.
Ron 10
QuoteYou didn't call her stupid Ron that other guy did. She got knocked out. I was not there, I don't know the
situation, but to quote Mike Mullins, "sometimes skydivers get excited and do stuff.". I thrilled she was
saved and this turned out okay. But what these anti-aad people are saying is that they will NEVER EVER
make a mistake, that they will NEVER have us for an aad. I like to try new things and jump with new people.
Things can happen and that's why I prefer to jump with an AAD. I am not perfect, in fact I'm a bit of a
klutz. I have jumped without an AAD and with. I will jump without an AAD, but prefer to jump with an AAD.
Apparently some of you never ever make a mistake and have zero tolerance for people trying to learn and
making mistakes. Its pretty sad.
Well, I have made plenty of mistakes. And I never hide them when I do make them.
I don't like the trend that I am seeing of skydivers depending on a CYPRES. I think its wrong...
I also think that if you are asved you need to look at your participation in this sport. This girl still could have died. The ADD could not have worked, she could of landed in a river, or on a train track.
The start of this situation was her doing an exit that casued her to hit the tail....She is also the only one that hit the tail. So she needs to look at WHY she was the only one, and realize that an AAD is a last chance. She should be dead, I am glad she is not, but she needs to think
HOW HER ACTIONS CREATED THIS SITUATION.
Because that is what happened.
Again, I am glad she had an AAD. I have an AAD, If I had a son I would have them jump an AAD, I like AAD's...I don't like the people that depend on them. And worse those that depend and pretend that they don't.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
kallend 2,027
***
Ron,
I have seen a guy with more jumps than you hit the tail of a Caravan due to a "pilot induced oscillation" as he left the camera step. No one else on the load hit the tail. It IS possible that this girl did nothing wrong, you know. You seem to be leaping to conclusions here.
QuoteQuoteYou didn't call her stupid Ron that other guy did. She got knocked out. I was not there, I don't know the
situation, but to quote Mike Mullins, "sometimes skydivers get excited and do stuff.". I thrilled she was
saved and this turned out okay. But what these anti-aad people are saying is that they will NEVER EVER
make a mistake, that they will NEVER have us for an aad. I like to try new things and jump with new people.
Things can happen and that's why I prefer to jump with an AAD. I am not perfect, in fact I'm a bit of a
klutz. I have jumped without an AAD and with. I will jump without an AAD, but prefer to jump with an AAD.
Apparently some of you never ever make a mistake and have zero tolerance for people trying to learn and
making mistakes. Its pretty sad.
Well, I have made plenty of mistakes. And I never hide them when I do make them.
I don't like the trend that I am seeing of skydivers depending on a CYPRES. I think its wrong...
I also think that if you are asved you need to look at your participation in this sport. This girl still could have died. The ADD could not have worked, she could of landed in a river, or on a train track.
The start of this situation was her doing an exit that casued her to hit the tail....She is also the only one that hit the tail. So she needs to look at WHY she was the only one, and realize that an AAD is a last chance. She should be dead, I am glad she is not, but she needs to think
HOW HER ACTIONS CREATED THIS SITUATION.
Because that is what happened.
Again, I am glad she had an AAD. I have an AAD, If I had a son I would have them jump an AAD, I like AAD's...I don't like the people that depend on them. And worse those that depend and pretend that they don't.
Ron,
I have seen a guy with more jumps than you hit the tail of a Caravan due to a "pilot induced oscillation" as he left the camera step. No one else on the load hit the tail. It IS possible that this girl did nothing wrong, you know. You seem to be leaping to conclusions here.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Ron 10
QuoteI have seen a guy with more jumps than you hit the tail of a Caravan due to a "pilot induced
oscillation" as he left the camera step. No one else on the load hit the tail. It IS possible that this
girl did nothing wrong, you know. You seem to be leaping to conclusions here.
She was not on the camera step.
Also all I EVER said was she needs to look at *why she was the only one to knock herself out*.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Scrumpot 1
QuoteAlso all I EVER said was she needs to look at *why she was the only one to knock herself out*
I think we were covering that, albeit only briefly, when we were discussing why she chose to take a "poised" exit in the 1st place (and what her considerations may have been) in an otherwise"emergency" situation. I think it was my observation that she had treated this as nothing more than a simple "hop-n-pop", perhaps without giving the situation a better consideration. That is before this thread got completely single-tracked into only one component of the event ...and that was/is the Cypres!
I too would like us to go back and maybe more fully discuss/consider the decision/considerations which caused this event to actually occur in the first place. What could have been done differently to have maybe even potentially AVOIDED this??
Still glad that Caryn (sp?) was using a Cypres, and that it was on, and further that it WORKED (never "rely" on this! -of course. ...let's move on) so that she can be here to now share all of this with us! What say we all that we now take more full advantage of that aspect too now accordingly? ---(to discuss and learn from the TAIL STRIKE on exit, which IMHO is the real incident here!)
coitus non circum - Moab Stone
Chrisky 0
Simple as that - IMHO! Just posing my opinion, if i'm posing facts i back them up.
As i stated, i currently jump a rig w/o Cypres, i don't see that "if you got a Cypres, you don't care anymore to go low/have a false sense of security".
Sorry, its the same kind of argument as "you're not looking at your baro anymore once you have an audible". I don't buy it...![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]")
Go ahead jumping w/o one, i simply look at the fatality reports of bouncers and it usually says "AAD: No". Then i tell myself: Another unnecessary death.
Your point of argumentation is like saying not to put airbags in cars because 0.5% of people get killed by them and would elseway have survived the crash. More lives are being saved bz Cypres than lost.
If you don't want to have one, that's ok for me, but if you bounce because the shit hit the fan, i'll still be there.
As i stated, i currently jump a rig w/o Cypres, i don't see that "if you got a Cypres, you don't care anymore to go low/have a false sense of security".
Sorry, its the same kind of argument as "you're not looking at your baro anymore once you have an audible". I don't buy it...
Go ahead jumping w/o one, i simply look at the fatality reports of bouncers and it usually says "AAD: No". Then i tell myself: Another unnecessary death.
Your point of argumentation is like saying not to put airbags in cars because 0.5% of people get killed by them and would elseway have survived the crash. More lives are being saved bz Cypres than lost.
If you don't want to have one, that's ok for me, but if you bounce because the shit hit the fan, i'll still be there.
The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...
apoil 0
QuoteBut what these anti-aad people are saying is that they will NEVER EVER make a mistake, that they will NEVER have us for an aad.
No they aren't. But what they are saying is that they are willing to accept death as a consequence of making such a mistake.
QuoteQuoteBut what these anti-aad people are saying is that they will NEVER EVER make a mistake, that they will NEVER have us for an aad.
No they aren't. But what they are saying is that they are willing to accept death as a consequence of making such a mistake.
Okay fine, then why do they seem to have such low opinions of people who jump with cypres? Obviously they think everyone who does is a toad and shouldn't be in the sky, or at least that's how these people are coming across to me. I jump with a cypres because I want to. If for some reason I am unconscious for either a bad skydive or unforseen medical reason, and survive, not only will I be glad I had it but so will my family.
Judy
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.
Ron 10
QuoteOkay fine, then why do they seem to have such low opinions of people who jump with cypres? Obviously
they think everyone who does is a toad and shouldn't be in the sky, or at least that's how these people are
coming across to me. I jump with a cypres because I want to. If for some reason I am unconscious for
either a bad skydive or unforseen medical reason, and survive, not only will I be glad I had it but so will my
family.
I don't have bad opinions of people that have them...I do have an issue with people that will have a fire and not think about how they screwed up. Or people that depend on them.
If you are knocked out I would hope you would stop and think about how and why you got into that situation.
And I would hope you would not go onto skydives that have a higher risk because you do have a CYPRES.
And if you pass out due to a medical condition I would hope you would find out why you did pass out...Not just get another cutter and keep jumping.
Further I would hope that if you knew you had a medical condition that could cause you to pass out that you would not jump.
However I have seen all of these (Except the get knocked out one....Never met on of those).
I have seen people with saves think nothing of it...when I ask them about it I get told they are safe since they bought a CYPRES and thats why they bough it.
I have seen people go on skydives and when I mention that there is a high risk on that jump I get told thats its ok since they have a CYPRES.
I know people with medical conditions that can make them pass out....So insted of not jumping, they buy a CYPRES and think thats the answer.
Now I would rather have CYPRES saves than diviots on the DZ, but I would rather not have the CYPRES saves. And after one I wish people would sit down and think about it more than seems to be the norm now.
Thats all.
But people will not, and I can't make them.
So all I can do is rant about it here, and have people hate me for bringing it up.
Oh well.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
UNFORSEEN medical condition. Please re-read that post. Heart attacks in some cases are UNFORSEEN.
People need to learn froma mistake that is made. But it seems it is automatically assumed they were just "too stupid", at least that is what I'm getting out of all this cypres discussion.
I gotta go now. gone for a week.
Judy
People need to learn froma mistake that is made. But it seems it is automatically assumed they were just "too stupid", at least that is what I'm getting out of all this cypres discussion.
I gotta go now. gone for a week.
Judy
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.
Chrisky 0
I totally agree on that. I've been to a DZ recently where they did a 40way from two planes and messed up the separation. Four people fell into Cypres. And they were not the most inexperienced ones.
It happened on the early bird when i overslept, and i'm happy i didn't have to see that.
Most of them acted as if nothing had happened, but what do you expect? Have them whining all day for messing up? It's the DZ Ops responsibilty to ask them what went wrong and if needed, ground them.
And i wouldn't like anybody asking if i had talked to them as the DZO.
The attitude "i'm safe because my cypres is there" usually goes along with a very lacky safety discipline of the respective jumpers.
Their safety discipline is the REAL problem, not the Cypres. So that's what we need to work on.
MHO
It happened on the early bird when i overslept, and i'm happy i didn't have to see that.
Most of them acted as if nothing had happened, but what do you expect? Have them whining all day for messing up? It's the DZ Ops responsibilty to ask them what went wrong and if needed, ground them.
And i wouldn't like anybody asking if i had talked to them as the DZO.
The attitude "i'm safe because my cypres is there" usually goes along with a very lacky safety discipline of the respective jumpers.
Their safety discipline is the REAL problem, not the Cypres. So that's what we need to work on.
MHO
The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...
mikeat10500 12
Quote
Your opinions are very disturbing to me especially since your profile shows that you are an instructor.
My opinions are just that...mine. I'm not anti-AAD
and most of my friends(98%) wear them on every jump. I recommend them to all jumpers just off student status and never discourage their use(as a back-up) after that. I'm just saying if you bang your head hard enough to knock yourself out
than you could have broken your neck and Cypres
could be safely lowering you dead body to the ground. Better not to collide with things in the air(or on the ground) in the first place.
Quote
Your point of view is calling this girl stupid because she got knocked out.. That is a personal attack.
Judy
I meant no attack on the girl in question and only refer to peoples actions as being stupid not the people themselves. I have done a lot of stupid things
in the past and hope to do less in the future.
P.S.
Wearing an AAD does not make you stupid...but it won't make you smart either!
-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.
mikeat10500 12
Quote
Do you really believe your own rhetoric or are you posting as you say to offend people. I have more jumps on rounds then you have jumps, if your profile is correct.
And your still around to tell us about it...COOL.
(rounds are sound...and all that!)
Quote
To use one as your last chance by choice is not the sign of a man/woman with both oars in the water.
Perhaps you could convince the military of the safety
aspect of changing to squares...maybe save thousands of lives.(They chuck them out in the dark
from 600' with an extra 120 lbs of gear...no reserve).
My point was if you have a 2 square set up, it should
never become a 2 square out situation...NEVER!!!
Like never forget to pull...that kind of never.
Quote
Lastly, what was it that caused you to form such a low opinion of AAD's? jmho
I don't have a low opinion of AAD's...just think they are over rated. I think most jumpers will never need
one. People are terrified of burning in at terminal but few are afraid of their next landing...the most common cause of death in the sport today.
-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.
QuotePerhaps you could convince the military of the safety
aspect of changing to squares...maybe save thousands of lives.(They chuck them out in the dark
from 600' with an extra 120 lbs of gear...no reserve).
Operational altitude for an airborne drop is 350 ft. with 100 lbs. of gear and they do wear a reserve. They also have a 30% malfunction rate. The use of ramair canopies in this type of operation is not an option. The military does use ramair canopies for insertion of smaller groups of special opps. units such as the MT-1X. The system has 2, yes 2 ramair canopies. With proper training 2 out can be handled or avoided in the first place.
I must have misunderstood you on the AAD. The way you were describing them made me think you were against them.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals
no one should be suprised at anything your saying mike once they look at your profile. After i got done looking your gear up in "history and trivia" it came to me, its not aad's you have an issue with its advancment and technology.
and your calling others stupid. funny very funny.
p.s. i got a sweet wonderhog for sale if your interested.
and your calling others stupid. funny very funny.
p.s. i got a sweet wonderhog for sale if your interested.
D22369 0
Must be bad body position
-----
Actually, what causes such a high malfunction rate? is it entanglements with other jumpers?
Roy
They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.
Ron 10
QuoteOperational altitude for an airborne drop is 350 ft. with 100 lbs. of gear and they do wear a reserve.
In the 82nd we went out at 1,000 feet in training. 800 feet in practice, and 500 feet in combat...You could go with or without a reserve in combat.
Gear ranged from 40 pounds for the rig and nothing to 150ish pounds of crap straped all over you.
Ron
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Not.
http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/dualsq.pdf
I hope you don't do something stupid like risk having to use your lopo in high winds.
edit to add: I never grounded myself during the 10+ years that I had a round reserve (I was stupid-I think most did the same). I was damn glad conditions were good the two times I used it
One item you don't have on your lopo is a freebag. Round reserves would be better off with this bit of technology, I think.
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