SpinDoctor 0 #1 September 11, 2003 Hi folks... I'm planning on a new canopy and thought i'd get your input / thoughts etc etc I have been jumping for 2 years - and am very current, I jump every weekend. I weigh 175 lb - so that puts me about 195 out of the door (I don't wear any lead) My canopy progression so far has been: Student canopies > 200 - 40 jumps PD 170 @ 1.14 - 150 jumps ZP EXE155 @ 1.25 - 240 jumps (this is a South African square ZP - steep glide angle / long recovery arc, apparently) Hurricane 150 @ 1.3 - 15 jumps (this is a South African elliptical ZP - which also has a steep glide angle. I have just started jumping this whilst decide what I get next and wait for it to turn up... I am guessing about 80-100 jumps. I wanted to go elliptical on the same wingloading first) I was thinking Sabre II 135 or Safire II 129/139 or even a Crossfire II 129. I would be loading the Crossfire at 1.5 - which would be about right I guess for 500 jumps. I have also jumped a Safire II 149, which i found had a very shallow glide angle... I overshot the PLA compared to my EXE - although, it was _only_ 1 jump ;o) Also jumped a Sabre II 135, again, only 1 jump - it was ok... but I wasn't kicking the arse out of it. Thank you all in advance... Let the flames begin ;o)----------------------- Connextion: British 8 Way Team www.bodyflight.co.uk ----------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #2 September 11, 2003 Hi,firstly i would recommend you stay clear of the cossfire. Reason i say this[please note i'm trying to read between the lines here!] is that you say I have also jumped a Safire II 149, which i found had a very shallow glide angle... I overshot the PLA compared to my EXE - although, it was _only_ 1 jump ;o)*** So i suspect your canopy control could be better. Though the Safire & the Sabre,i believe are very good choices though not at 1.4+, i would recommend that you keep your exe as i think you'll find that in time you can get alot more from this canopy[i leant to swoop using an older variant called a ZP150 also made by Chute Shop SA] Also have a chat with Andy Ford as i'm sure he'll could advise you better than any of us DZ commers as i know he's based at Weston. Also, if you havn't done so already,attend one of Chris Lynch's canopy control seminars as you'll find his advise invaluable..CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #3 September 11, 2003 I was thinking Sabre II 135 or Safire II 129/139 or even a Crossfire II 129. I would be loading the Crossfire at 1.5 - which would be about right I guess for 500 jumps.*** I would like to add that canopy selection is NOT a jump number thing!.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpinDoctor 0 #4 September 11, 2003 True enough... you wouldn't want to be getting a new canopy every 100 jumps... What I should have mentioned is that I saw somewhere a 'table' (on DZ.com IIRC) that linked wing loading and jump numbers. This is what I was referring to when I said 1.5 - 500 jumps. Seemed to make more sense to me rather than jump numbers / canopy size. I'll see if i can find it----------------------- Connextion: British 8 Way Team www.bodyflight.co.uk ----------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpinDoctor 0 #5 September 11, 2003 QuoteSo i suspect your canopy control could be better. Fair point... although as I said... it was one jump after about 200+ on the ZP EXE... The characteristics are obviously different - and you cannot find out those differences in one jump QuoteThough the Safire & the Sabre,i believe are very good choices though not at 1.4+ Could you expand on this please? Quotei would recommend that you keep your exe as i think you'll find that in time you can get alot more from this canopy You are probably right... I could wring a bit more out of it... but I have already swapped it for a Hurricane 150 Quotei leant to swoop using an older variant called a ZP150 also made by Chute Shop SA It's the same thing... QuoteAlso have a chat with Andy Ford as i'm sure he'll could advise you better than any of us DZ commers When he's there QuoteAlso, if you havn't done so already,attend one of Chris Lynch's canopy control seminars as you'll find his advise invaluable. Good point - I should put this on my 'to-do' list----------------------- Connextion: British 8 Way Team www.bodyflight.co.uk ----------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #6 September 11, 2003 ------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Though the Safire & the Sabre,i believe are very good choices though not at 1.4+ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Could you expand on this please? Going back to my reading between the lines and canopy control spill! At this loading i think you'll find things happen rather quickly and if you make a mistake low to the ground that mistake could prove to be extremely unforgiving! ------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote ------------------------------------------------------------------------ i would recommend that you keep your exe as i think you'll find that in time you can get alot more from this canopy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ You are probably right... I could wring a bit more out of it... but I have already swapped it for a Hurricane 150 Too late Stick with it,i'm sure you're well aware of the differences. DO/ATTEND THAT CANOPY CONTROL COURSE ASAP! If you're in Spain[Empuria] there's a course you can attend there.I've heard it's V.good. Alternatively contact Tim Carter at Hibblestow as he has a canopy control school there. RESPECT THE HURRICANE..CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpinDoctor 0 #7 September 11, 2003 QuoteI'll see if i can find it It's Ron's post... a couple of times Ron #2----------------------- Connextion: British 8 Way Team www.bodyflight.co.uk ----------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpinDoctor 0 #8 September 11, 2003 QuoteGoing back to my reading between the lines and canopy control spill! At this loading i think you'll find things happen rather quickly and if you make a mistake low to the ground that mistake could prove to be extremely unforgiving! It's difficult not to get defensive about all this... I know that low turns kill... i know that smaller canopies give you less time to react to f**k-up Are you saying a Sabre II / Safire II loaded at 1.4 on 500 jumps is a bit too advanced?----------------------- Connextion: British 8 Way Team www.bodyflight.co.uk ----------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #9 September 11, 2003 My point is regarding jump numbers and canopy selection is! Example jumper No1Say has 1000+ jumps has say been jumping the same canopy say since jump No50,has never asked advice on canopy control and is generally seen as a non aggressive pilot. Example jumper No2Lucky guy as taken canopy control advice since jump No say 50.Always exits the aircraft with a flight plan of a canopy control exercise that he wishes to practice and does so until he is extremely competent at that skill he now has say 500 jumps. Question is who is "ready"/more capable of flying a high performance wing safely.No1 or No2. Point being just because someone has 'X' jump numbers dosn't mean that their ready...CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpinDoctor 0 #10 September 11, 2003 ok... agreed... I think you'd have to take that up with Brian Germain though... i am just saying i like that as a 'reference' as opposed to a reference based purely on jump number and canopy size. I saw it here... and it made sense to me... Obviously there are other factors to take into consideration.----------------------- Connextion: British 8 Way Team www.bodyflight.co.uk ----------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #11 September 11, 2003 Are you saying a Sabre II / Safire II loaded at 1.4 on 500 jumps is a bit too advanced? Rgds Phil*** I accept that i can't honestly answer that question as i havn't seen you fly/land your present wing. Hence the have a chat with Andy spill. But with me reading between the lines i prefer to err on the side of caution regarding desired wing loads..CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpinDoctor 0 #12 September 11, 2003 I was speaking generally.. but i take your point... As for reading between the line re: canopy control... I think I was pretty open about it... If you are demo-ing a new canopy (of any make/model/size) you cannot make a decision based on one jump... There are threads running here at the moment that suggest 20+ jumps as a minimum. This makes a lot of sense to me... So then the reverse must also be true... If you jump a canopy once and it does not resopnd in the same way as your own canopy and, let's say you over shoot, does that make you a bad canopy pilot? If I test another (smaller / faster / red / blue / green) canopy once and I land it - does that make me a great canopy pilot? Of course not. I said I jumped a Safire 149 once and I over shot. If it was my EXE - would I have over shot? Maybe. Maybe not. So - did i over shoot because i am a poor pilot or because I was jumping a different canopy with (potentially) different flight characteristics than the one I have 200+ jumps on? I didnt want to protesteth too much - but i think it's too late ----------------------- Connextion: British 8 Way Team www.bodyflight.co.uk ----------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #13 September 11, 2003 Didn't say you were a bad canopy pilot,but reading between the lines the accuracy trick is IMO a fundermental skill and applies to all[could be wrong here] canopies,safire/sabre anyway. Your absolutely right on the demo front though and no time was i trying to imply that you should 'know'a canopy and how it flies after just one jump..CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jiggs 0 #14 September 11, 2003 The only thing I would say is take your time, its very easy to get into the mindset of "I need the next smaller thing" - Especially when you borrow smaller gear and it performs so much more than your current setup. A very easy trap to fall into. (have done so myself) The biggest thing I think that we all need to realise is that the mind set (not to mention skill set) of the jumper is of paramount importance. Collectively, we all find ways to hurt ourselves under perfectly good canopies. You can get hurt under any size canopy; being on a smaller one just ensures that there is just that much more pain when something goes wrong. So I guess I would say that its your choice, but I don't think its the right choice (or the right reason to change) *Provided you are not a tool under canoy I would assume you would be ok. ** Crossfire's can be made in size, hell you can even get a stock 139, or get a 132.197 Enjoy and BE SAFE"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain." "In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #15 September 12, 2003 I have downsized to a Paratec Faqtor 120 this year, i'm about 185 lbs out the door. It's a semi-elliptical with a steep dive, yet it recovers quite fast by itself and can "fly the corner" pretty narrow,meaning that when you pull the toggles in a dive, it goes horizontal AT ONCE. It swoops really well and gives you a _very_ wide range of handling style. A jumper with more than 2500 jumps jumped it once as a backup, and he told me he liked it better than many of the HP ellipticals he had jumped. Agressively agile, yet tame as apuppy, depending on YOUR style flying it. I know this sounds like i'm working for the manufacturer, but i don't. Just love my canopy and i know many people having that one doing so, too. Mail them for a demo or maybe take a weekend to Spa, they usually have a Faqtor 135 as a demo on site (which i used to jump till my 120 arrived).The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
