My frank and valiant opinion on downsizing questions

[BMFin 0]

The most popular topic at DZ.com seems to be someone asking if he/she is ready to downsize. For a while i have been wondering why is this ? Nearly always the only comments these people get is "dont do it" , "why to downsize ?" "your gonna get hurt bad". Pretty rarely I see someone saying : Thats a pretty large canopy. Are sure you wont get bored with it quickly ?

My advise for the people asking these questions on the net is rather listen to the instructors / DZO´s at your DZ . They know you and they have seen you land. They can see a lot more then just the jumpnumbers. And most of all LISTEN TO YOUR SELF. Different people really do develop at different level.

Im sure the canopy-nazis here have all the best intentions, but come on ... Loosen up a bit.

I think everyone who´s asking opinions about downsizing alreasy knows the feedback they are going to get. So why to bother ?


Let the flaiming begin.

[skybytch 273]

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Im sure the canopy-nazis here have all the best intentions, but come on ... Loosen up a bit.

Okay. As soon as people - especially newer jumpers - stop fucking themselves up under perfectly good canopies.

[BMFin 0]

There are things we cannot prevent 100%.

We cant stop traffic accidents 100%

Sure we can set the speed limits close to nothing but is that the optimum ?

[Unstable 9]

I know i dont' have much experience in this issue, but if someone is seeking advice on downsizing on the net, that in itself is a sign that they should probably stick with their current wing for a while.
Other than overconfidence created within a person, wouldn't the biggest determining factor be a jumpers comfort level on their current wing.

whatever,

sds

=========Shaun ==========

[Hooknswoop 19]

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There are things we cannot prevent 100%.

We cant stop traffic accidents 100%

But can't we stop (or at least advise against, when asked) people from downsizing too fast 100%?

Hook

[Unstable 9]

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Im sure the canopy-nazis here have all the best intentions, but come on ... Loosen up a bit.

If people just had a conservative approach to downsizing, maybe waiting a while on their current wing even after they are "ready" to downsize, wouldn't this be a null issue? Such a shame to see so many avoidable injuries, that makes our sport look bad.

As for myself, i could easily downsize another 20 ft^2 without an problem, but whats the rush? A former coach of mine keeps tellling me that we need to make a 20-year commitment to be in the sport, so where's the fire?
This is my opinion, i'm not going to hold this to anybody. my $.01 (i'd give my full .02, but i'm cheap)

sds

=========Shaun ==========

[jerm 0]

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Pretty rarely I see someone saying : Thats a pretty large canopy. Are sure you wont get bored with it quickly ?

because people aggressively trying/wanting to downsize generally get bored of their canopy WAY before they really know how to fly it, or more importantly LAND it in shitty conditions.

Spouting off BillV's list can give the receptive listener things to think about and work on, things to perhaps make the canopy 'interesting' again if they really care about being able to fly as well as they thought they did.

The problem is that people get bored with how quickly their canopy turns and how long it dives and how fast it comes in on landing, all the things that ARE NOT IMPORTANT TO LANDING YOU SAFELY. Yet people are making canopy downsizing decisions based on how fast the canopy feels instead of their likelihood of being able to land it safely in conditions that are less than ideal.

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My advise for the people asking these questions on the net is rather listen to the instructors / DZO´s at your DZ . They know you and they have seen you land. They can see a lot more then just the jumpnumbers.

this is true... but i've seen/heard of some instructors making some downright bad recommendations. My advice would be to go with the more experienced of the instructors.. they've generally seen more blood, lost a few more friends and have a little more perspective.

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And most of all LISTEN TO YOUR SELF. Different people really do develop at different level.

yes... and that includes listening to the little voice WAY in the back of you head that says "this may is a bad idea"

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Im sure the canopy-nazis here have all the best intentions, but come on ... Loosen up a bit.

Perple are getting broken, maimed, paralyzed and KILLED under good working parachutes that they're not ready for... which part of that do you want me to add levity to?

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I think everyone who´s asking opinions about downsizing alreasy knows the feedback they are going to get. So why to bother ?

perhaps some of them are "listening to themselves", hearing "yeah, you're ready, go for it!" and come here to be talked down from it.... somewhere inside they know that they should probably wait, but the adrenaline junky is getting the better of them and they're hoping they'll find some cooler heads here.

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[BMFin 0]

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There are things we cannot prevent 100%.

We cant stop traffic accidents 100%

But can't we stop (or at least advise against, when asked) people from downsizing too fast 100%?

Hook

I have nothing against reasonable advises towards downsizing. My main point was : Is DZ.com the right place to ask these questions ?

Also,

What is downsizing too fast ? In Finland we have totally different downsizing culture. Me flying a 120 Hornet @ 1.3 with 50 jumps is totally normal in Finland. Im sure we have no more accidents here than in the U.S .

[happythoughts 0]

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My advise for the people asking these questions on the net is rather listen to the instructors / DZO´s at your DZ . They know you and they have seen you land. They can see a lot more then just the jumpnumbers. And most of all LISTEN TO YOUR SELF. Different people really do develop at different level.

Ummm... most of all DONT listen to yourself, you may not have that much experience. Listen to the instructors and jumpmasters on the dz who are almost guaranteed to have a better opinion.

A lot of people overrate their own ability. The impartial opinion of someone with a lot of experience who has seen you land should always override the inexperienced opinion.

[jerm 0]

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There are things we cannot prevent 100%.
We cant stop traffic accidents 100%

no, but there are things we can do to reduce them, or make the ones that DO happen less severe.. it's called due diligence.

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Sure we can set the speed limits close to nothing but is that the optimum ?

No, but accidents at 60 are generally a lot less severe than accidents at 100, thank you for a great example in my favour!!

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[BMFin 0]

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No, but accidents at 60 are generally a lot less severe than accidents at 100, thank you for a great example in my favour!!

Yes and accidents at 20 are generally a lot less severe than accidents at 60.

[jerm 0]

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Yes and accidents at 20 are generally a lot less severe than accidents at 60.

and your point is.....?

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[jerm 0]

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I have nothing against reasonable advises towards downsizing. My main point was : Is DZ.com the right place to ask these questions ?


***
What is downsizing too fast ? In Finland we have totally different downsizing culture. Me flying a 120 Hornet @ 1.3 with 50 jumps is totally normal in Finland. Im sure we have no more accidents here than in the U.S .

and that's a valid point. I'd be willing to bet:

1) You learn on a higer-winloading from the git-go
2) receive more thorough canopy instruction on student status

3) MAYBE have a slightly less swoop-happy culture (reaching on this one)

Problem is that most places in the states teach on big canopies with WAY LESS than a 1:1 loading to protect students from student fuckups and poor canopy control coaching.... then they get out into the real world and truly have no business loading somethinig up at 1.3... especially something as small as a 120.

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[happythoughts 0]

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No, but accidents at 60 are generally a lot less severe than accidents at 100, thank you for a great example in my favour!!

Yes and accidents at 20 are generally a lot less severe than accidents at 60.

I hope that if a very experienced jumpmaster at your dz tells an inexperienced jumper that they should be going 20, not 60, that the inexperieced jumper will listen. That would seem reasonable, wouldn't it?

[BMFin 0]

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Yes and accidents at 20 are generally a lot less severe than accidents at 60.

and your point is.....?

Point is: Where to draw the line of safety ??

[BMFin 0]

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I have nothing against reasonable advises towards downsizing. My main point was : Is DZ.com the right place to ask these questions ?

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What is downsizing too fast ? In Finland we have totally different downsizing culture. Me flying a 120 Hornet @ 1.3 with 50 jumps is totally normal in Finland. Im sure we have no more accidents here than in the U.S .

and that's a valid point. I'd be willing to bet:

1) You learn on a higer-winloading from the git-go
2) receive more thorough canopy instruction on student status

3) MAYBE have a slightly less swoop-happy culture (reaching on this one)

Problem is that most places in the states teach on big canopies with WAY LESS than a 1:1 loading to protect students from student fuckups and poor canopy control coaching.... then they get out into the real world and truly have no business loading somethinig up at 1.3... especially something as small as a 120.

***You learn on a higer-winloading from the git-go

During student status I have flown (about) :

Navigator 280 1 jump
Navigator 240 5 jumps
Navigator 200 20 jumps
Sabre 170 5 jumps
Sabre 150 20 jumps


Yes, our training is much more comprehensive than in the U.S. (Average jump numbers before off-student status are around 50-60 jumps.) But is this really a reason why we would be better canopy flyers ? We dont really recieve any significant coaching conserning canopy-flying after our FJC, if you are reaching the landing area good enough.

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MAYBE have a slightly less swoop-happy culture (reaching on this one)

Do you mean we like to swoop less ? I dont think so..

[Ron 10]

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Yes, our training is much more comprehensive than in the U.S. (Average jump numbers before off-student
status are around 50-60 jumps.) But is this really a reason why we would be better canopy flyers ?

Yes that is the exact reason.

As for why we...And I do include me in this bitch....

Well no one NEEDS a small canopy...I have one..I think you should be allowed to have them AFTER you have the skill, knowledge, and good judgment to handle it...Most don't at 300 jumps have those 3 enough to handle a 1.5 wingload...Yet that is the most common combo of # of people that died last year under canopy.....

Seems really simple to me.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jerm 0]

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Point is: Where to draw the line of safety ??

that's really easy:

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Don't downsize until you stand up _all_ your landings. Also make sure you can:

-flare turn, at least 45 degrees
-flat turn, at least 90 degrees at 50 feet
-land in no wind and crosswind
-land on slight uphill/downhills
-land reliably in a 10 meter circle
-land with rear risers
-make a double fronts and a front riser HP approach

Once you can do all that, you'll be ready

(source, billvon)

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[BMFin 0]

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Don't downsize until you stand up _all_ your landings. Also make sure you can:

-flare turn, at least 45 degrees
-flat turn, at least 90 degrees at 50 feet
-land in no wind and crosswind
-land on slight uphill/downhills
-land reliably in a 10 meter circle
-land with rear risers
-make a double fronts and a front riser HP approach

Once you can do all that, you'll be ready

(source, billvon)

That looks pretty good. Only thing im not 100% sure about is landing with rear risers...

[PhreeZone 20]

The jump numbers in Finland are probally about the jumps that the WFFC puts up in a week. SDC or Perris does about the same number of jumps in a year as all Finland from the numbers I've looked at.

The problem is that having one or two incidents in a country in a year is'nt that big of a deal, untill you scale it up to the numbers in the US and then the same numbers multiplied by 10 or 50. Takeing a look at Perris might show that a higher loading then dz.com says is'nt an issue but that involes less then a fraction of all total jumps in the world.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[AggieDave 6]

From your opinion, I'm guessing you haven't personally seen people hook in and ruin their lives and the lives of those around them. Nor have you seen someone hook in and die.

Maybe once you see the dark side of the sport in person a few times, your opinion and attitude towards downsizing will change.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[cloud9 0]

The problems I see are a little different. First all the stats point to the fact that its not the low timers getting killed under canopy. Last months parachute showed an average of over 1000 jumps. Most have over 500. Not to say the low timers shouldn't be taught about wing loading and coached. Its just not the main problem.
Also to often someone asks whats the flight difference between say a Cobalt 120 and a Crossfire 119 and after 10 post the answer they got was you don't need to know because you shouldn't be jumping that canopy. Sorry folks buts thats not education. If you really want to educate then tell them the flight characteristics and then explain what jump numbers would be appropiate for that canopy.
If I call you stupid anything I say after that falls on deaf ears. If you post something that does not answer their question they think your stupid. If I ask about a canopy and someone asks me about life insurance they lost any credibility they might have had. The sad truth is many times they are right about the canopy but will never get their point accross.
.
.

[BMFin 0]

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From your opinion, I'm guessing you haven't personally seen people hook in and ruin their lives and the lives of those around them. Nor have you seen someone hook in and die.

Maybe once you see the dark side of the sport in person a few times, your opinion and attitude towards downsizing will change.

As much as I wish I wouldn´t have seen anyone getting hurt, I have.

[beemertec 0]

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perhaps some of them are "listening to themselves", hearing "yeah, you're ready, go for it!" and come here to be talked down from it.... somewhere inside they know that they should probably wait, but the adrenaline junky is getting the better of them and they're hoping they'll find some cooler heads here.

That is exactly why I asked in another thread. I think I am ready and some of my instructors think I am ready. There are even some other people I jump with that think I am ready. There are also people who say don't rush it. Get some more experience. While it is true my instructors know me best, there are a lot of very experienced jumpers here, who, even though they don't know me personally, know how someone with my experience will typically handle themselves under canopy. We all progress at different levels, but I am certain it is very rare for someone with low jump numbers to be as good or better than someone with much higher jump #'s.
For me the bottom line is out of the experienced jumpers I have talked to at different DZs and at DZ.com the majority have said don't downsize yet. I choose to listen to them.

Damnit! Last night I was ready to downsize and now you guys (and girls) have me sounding like a canopy-nazi. Oh well. Maybe it will help me live longer.

Blue Skies
Steve
Ok, so it's pink, but I'm secure in my manhood, and I still look cool coming in under it!

[billvon 3,009]

>I have nothing against reasonable advises towards downsizing. My
>main point was : Is DZ.com the right place to ask these questions ?

It's not as good as talking to an instructor who watches you land, but better than talking to your buddy who just downsized from a Manta to a Sabre2 120 and has just lucked out so far. On this forum we have Lisa Briggs, who might just end up selling you your next canopy (or telling you you're not ready for it.) We have Derek who is probably safer under his 3:1 canopy than most people are at 1.5 to 1. And there's always me, and I will at least flag or delete any post that gives obviously dangerous advice.

The downside of advice here is that most of us don't know how someone lands. We have to rely on what they tell us about their skills, and they can misinterpret or even lie about their skills. That's one of the problems of an internet discussion board.

>Pretty rarely I see someone saying : Thats a pretty large canopy. Are
>sure you wont get bored with it quickly ?

That's because most experienced jumpers have had both experiences. They've sat and listened to their friends bitch that their canopies are boring. They've also sat in a hospital room and prayed that their friend survives her next surgery. One of those things is OK, one isn't. Making sure people are ready _before_ they downsize is one way to keep your friends out of the hospital (and the morgue.)