Wing Loading Restrictions? (Skydive Kansas)

[CDRINF 1]

I have jumped at SD Kansas and know Jim and Jenn Sharp. They are good people with a low key, friendly, student oriented DZ. The DZ is also very child friendly since they have several small children. It's the first place I could bring my son with me and leave him on the ground while I jumped. The extended DZ "family" was happy to keep an eye on him while he played with the toys that are on site. Skydive Arizona it ain't, but it's still a nice place with good people that fills need in that part of the country.

The Sharps are struggling to keep a small Cessna DZ open in an era of soaring insurance premiums that is slowly pushing the small DZs out of business. Add in some hostile neighbors on the airport grounds as another factor that makes them worry about having an incident. Last Memorial Day during their 4 Cessna Boogie and Pig Roast a low time jumper under a small canopy hooked into the ground and probably only survived because the ground was very soft due to recent rains. I have not been there for a while since I am stationed in Korea now, but I would bet that accident is the reason for the rule.

Everyone has the right to run their business as they see fit as long as it's legal. In the free market, if you don't like it, you can take your dollars elsewhere. It's a nice DZ with good people and one of the better Cessna operations around. Maybe not cutting edge, but a fun place.

Chris Reed
D-15996

[D22369 0]

CYPRES OR ASTRA AAD


-->> That will teach me to respond without at least checking out the website

Roy

hmmmm, ya know, dont suggest to them that they would be even SAFER if everyone jumped with a tertiary reserve and pulled at least by 8,000'

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[wmw999 2,445]

Thanks for posting that. I haven't jumped there; I don't think I've ever even been in Kansas. But in a place where they're probably not trying to be a tandem factory, they probably have their reasons.

There are a lot of small DZs out there that have a small pool to draw from for instructors, coaches, and jumpmasters. They could either close down because they're not as big as others, or they could go ahead with what they have. I'd rather jumping continue. Beats the alternative.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Hooknswoop 19]

I never suggested it wasn't a nice, family atmosphere, DZ. The web page definately gave the impression that it was.

If someone goes in, will there be a 'no-skydiving' rule? Because of their rules, there are a lot of safe, experienced jumpers that could not jump there. Their rules are definately over the top. They have every right to make them, but they are being silly. Nothing over 1.5:1? C'mon. Their rules tell me that they think I am an un-safe jumper because I don't have an AAD and have above an 1.5:1 wingloading. That is close to being an insult and completely un-fair. Again, it is their DZ and they are free to make whatever rules they want and I am free to make fun of them for silly rules.

It may be a fun place, but I'll never know, because they would not allow me to jump there, nor a lot of other jumpers.

I went to another DZ a while back. On the waiver, they had a mandatory AAD rule. I told them I didn't have an AAD, please give me money back. They asked how many jumps I had and said, OK, you can jump.

Hook

[canopywhore 0]

The wingloading rule doesn't prevent accidents. I was in Chicagoland last year and broke my femur. I was loaded at 2 to 1. When I got home, the Dzo gave me a lecture about my wingloading being to high and nobody should ever jump a canopy loaded that high. He forgot to tell me that while I was in Chicago, a student with 5 or 6 jumps broke her femur, same leg, same break, under a manta 288 at home. Make the right mistake under any canopy and something is going to hurt.

[FlyGuy 0]

Sounds like a NV DZ tactic to keep fun jumpers away.***

What is this supposed to mean? Don't make statements like this if you don't know what you are talking about.

[diverdriver 5]

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Thanks for posting that. I haven't jumped there; I don't think I've ever even been in Kansas. But in a place where they're probably not trying to be a tandem factory, they probably have their reasons.

There are a lot of small DZs out there that have a small pool to draw from for instructors, coaches, and jumpmasters. They could either close down because they're not as big as others, or they could go ahead with what they have. I'd rather jumping continue. Beats the alternative.

Wendy W.

I haven't been to this DZ but I do know the people involved. And yes, they are nice people. They are DZOs trying to make it in a tough area. Kansas City and the Kansas / Missouri area has had a rough ride over the 90s with DZs. I think they are fighting more than local politics. So, if for the short term they need to make these rules to keep themselves jumping then so be it. It's not an insult when the alternative to you doing whatever you want is not operating at all.

I say give these guys some slack. They're trying to strike the balance between not operating and going all out.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[D22369 0]

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Sounds like a NV DZ tactic to keep fun jumpers away.***

What is this supposed to mean? Don't make statements like this if you don't know what you are talking about.

---> I believe hook was referring to skydive las vegas, who has instituted a rule that if you were not trained there, you cannot jump there.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[JumpHog 0]

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Last Memorial Day during their 4 Cessna Boogie and Pig Roast a low time jumper under a small canopy hooked into the ground and probably only survived because the ground was very soft due to recent rains.

I have known Jim and Jen for some time now. I learned to skydive at Skydive Kansas, and also worked there for a couple of seasons. They are two very saftey-orientated DZO's. While I think that some of there policies might be a bit excessive, it is their DZ, and they may run it any way they like. The news of their wingloading restrictions was news to me. While I worked there, I jumped a canopy loaded at 1.7:1. I also recently visited there, jumping my canopy, which I have over 1000 jumps on, loaded at 2.4:1. I was planning on returning for their annual Pig Roast, but may have to reconsider, due to the new policies. Nonetheless, I respect their decisions, and feel they have good reason for implementing them. Concerning the jumper who biffed in last year, he was not jumping a "small" canopy. He was jumping a Sabre 190, loaded a little over 1:1. It just goes to show you that someone can be seriously injured on any canopy, at any wingloading.

[FlyGuy 0]

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Quote

Sounds like a NV DZ tactic to keep fun jumpers away.***

What is this supposed to mean? Don't make statements like this if you don't know what you are talking about.

---> I believe hook was referring to skydive las vegas, who has instituted a rule that if you were not trained there, you cannot jump there.

Roy

If that is the case then that should be stated clearly. There are other dropzones here in the Las Vegas area that should not be receiving the bad rap of another DZO. There are other dropzones that are not that way here and they are trying to build the sport, so open ended statements should not be made that could be detrimental to them. Although they are not Perris or SD Arizona class DZ's they are still fun places to jump and have some cool people that are helpful and accomadating to funjumpers.

[D22369 0]

If that is the case then that should be stated clearly. There are other dropzones here in the Las Vegas area that should not be receiving the bad rap of another DZO. There are other dropzones that are not that way here and they are trying to build the sport, so open ended statements should not be made that could be detrimental to them. Although they are not Perris or SD Arizona class DZ's they are still fun places to jump and have some cool people that are helpful and accomadating to funjumpers.

--------------------

---> I agree with you completely, hopefully everyone realizes that there is only one "ANTI-CHRIST"
in the skydiving community, he just happens to be sharing your state, sucking up your oxygyn.....and before the flames come, yes I have met him, no we dont exchange christmas cards......
Jean is a very fun/ friendly place. I had a great time when I jumped there, one of my best friends works there now, you may know her Katie or K8 as it is.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[weavermc 0]

Jethers,
thank you for making me realize I am not the only crazy person out there that thinks this is a "little" strange. Everyone's posts here allow me to realize that I am not a crazed-lunatic skydiver, but merely a jumper who has progressed slowly and carefully to a point where I feel comfortable wing-loading a canopy DESIGNED to be heavily wing-loaded at 2.1...

At least I'll be in Texas soon!

Mark

[weavermc 0]

I love you too Voodew - but be careful, i'll be home in a few weeks........... my time in purgatory is almost up!

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Sounds like a NV DZ tactic to keep fun jumpers away.

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What is this supposed to mean?

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Because of past problems with "fun jumpers" breaking our rules; SLV will no longer accept fun jumpers who have not graduated from our SLV student program.

That is what it means. Is there something I missed?

Edit:

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If that is the case then that should be stated clearly. There are other dropzones here in the Las Vegas area that should not be receiving the bad rap of another DZO.

I was actually trying to be nice and not name the DZ in question, not trying to slam all NV/Las Vegas Area DZ's. I think everyone knows which DZ doesn't allow fun jumpers, but is a GM of USPA that "Keeps skydivers skydiving".

Hook

[Jethers203 0]

Hell yeah, you will never find a DZ in Texas with those type rules. If you are ever out west, try Skydive El Paso. It is my home drop zone and the people are awesome. They only have 2 Cessna 182's, but they don't give a shit what you jump.

John D-24352

[weavermc 0]

Jethers,
My home DZ is Skydive Temple in Salado, TX (Just north of Austin).

It is a C-206/182 DZ with great people, a family atmosphere, and a DZO that truly cares about his people. He has brought me up right and helped me to slowly progress and get better in this sport... if you find yourself in Central TX stop on by, I guarantee you won't be sorry.

Mark

[AggieDave 6]

Are we pushing our Texas DZs now?

Then you should get to SD Aggieland, we've got 2 C-182s, a kick ass group of people, a great...well, the list could go on for some time...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Ron 10]

Well, I have to add my input...Ianmdrennan I am replying to you to let you know that....

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Fly your canopy...don't let your canopy fly you.
Wait until your skill catches up with your balls.

Is probley THE best way I have seen of cutting to the point.
I like it.


Now...As long as people think THEY are the best canopy pilot in the world, and can handle a tiny canopy/high wingload...You will see more of this..

Also, it is the right of the owner to do what he wants..I support them.

I think that 1.5 is a little low, but hey most people who die in this sport under canopy have less than 500 jumps with a 1.5 wingload....So it seems they have a good reason for that rule.

I like Brian Germains table.
100 jumps 1.1
200 1.2
300 1.3
400 1.4

And if I owned a DZ it WOULD BE A RULE. If you didn't like it...Sorry.

More of this is comming.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ianmdrennan 2]

Ron,

Thanks. Unfortunately I can't take credit for "Wait until your skill catches up with your balls." as it was taken, with permission, from Jonny1488's post a while back (Wish I could say I came up with it

Blue skies,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[skybytch 273]

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Also, it is the right of the owner to do what he wants..I support them.

Me too. Further, I say good for them.

They may not care that they don't have people swooping the landing area; they might even like it that way. High performance landings under higher wing loadings are dangerous. Even the best can screw up and need to be scraped off the landing area. Not allowing high wingloadings might avoid having the Life Flight helicopter landing there quite so often. Also, they may have airport neighbors that don't appreciate them being there. One nasty looking incident could add fuel to that fire.

So those who jump 1.6+ wingloadings and those who don't have a Cypres can't jump there. Oh well. There are lots of other dz's where you can jump. If the lack of you buying jump tickets there forces them into bankruptcy, that's their problem. Somehow I doubt that will happen.

re: low experience staff members. That's the norm at most newer small dz's. For some reason there aren't many highly experienced instructors willing to move to East Bum F&%$ to do 10 work jumps a weekend when they can do that many on a weekday at a larger dz - and not do them out of a Cessna!

At most new small dz's the dzo does just about everything until s/he has "grown their own" - turned former first jump students into coaches and instructors and riggers.

Is a dz like this likely to produce world champion skydivers? Not if the local jumpers aren't willing to travel or bring in high level coaching. Do the people who jump at this dz have a great time playing in the sky with their friends? I'll bet they do - just as much or maybe even more than the high experience turbine snobs do (I include myself in the turbine snob part of that statement...).

re: low currency numbers for staff. One Cessna dz's don't turn lots of loads, and the ones they do turn only carry four people. It can be a real challenge to get 3 jumps done in one day sometimes. How long is the season in Kansas? Do the math; those numbers aren't bad at all if they only have one plane and a four month season.

[AggieDave 6]

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They may not care that they don't have people swooping the landing area

Wingloading restrictions doesn't prevent that though. Hell, yesterday I did a 40ft swoop under a Navigator 300. I loading it less then 1:1 (obvously).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skybytch 273]

Ah but you were moving far slower under that Navigator than you do under your main. Higher wingloadings generally mean more speed. More speed equals nastier injuries when the pilot screws up.

I'm not defending their choice of 1.5 as a maximum wingloading btw. I think that any type of restriction on wingloading or canopy type needs to consider experience, currency and overall skill level also. But it is their playground; they make the rules, if we don't like their rules we can play elsewhere.

[AggieDave 6]

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Ah but you were moving far slower under that Navigator than you do under your main.

That's for damned sure, even with the final turn I put on the Navigator.

I just wanted to make the point that no matter the winloading restrictions, some people may not stop swooping.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Steel 0]

Ok that is it I feel the need to put my two cents in here. As I see it wing loading control is like gun control. ITS STUPID!!! And ofcourse people with other interests in mind manipulate statistics and the stupid people follow them. I mean its extremely obvious that the people who commit the crimes are not law biding citizens. (like me who have there Concelaled handgun licenses and had to go through extreme background checks to get it). And that the people commiting the crimes with guns are not going to be controlled no matter what law you pass because they get them illegally. But decade after decade these freakin liberals continue to make the same stupid arguement. And the idiots who don't know any better and can't think for themselves just stay on the band wagon. Well this isn't any different. So a lot of people have died from bad landings, but look a little deeper for god sakes. Make a sensible statement, read the actual incident report and not just the conclusion made by the writer with another agenda in mind. Fact is the overwelming majority of them have very low experience and were not in anyway intending to make a high performance landing. They were turing back into the wind but were too low or were avoiding other canopies and because of there experience did not know any better than to make an aggressive low turn and met their fate for that reason. And last look even closer at what their wingloadings actually were. In my 9 years in this sport I remember one incident of a jumper loading over 2.0 who had a fatal accident with it. I believe it was in Deland with a velocity 84. Maybe I missed one. Maybe somebody else can metion one. But I am sure they can not come up with a significant percetage for their case to create wing loading policies. No for this they can only spin and play with facts and figures and fool the majority of people who unfortunately are stupid.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[weavermc 0]

I want to thank everyone for their input. When I originated this post, I was wondering if "most" people out there agreed with my mindset - which is I wingload my canopy high, but I do so after slowly progressing to that level, and by maintaining a safe mentality when i'm under that canopy.

I think maintaining a proactive approach to safety by DZs is a good idea, but I also think a drop-dead limit of 1.5 was excessive. (Nevermind how mad I was that the info wasn't posted on their website- but they've fixed that now)

I invited the DZO to read these posts since they still refuse to answer my emails directly, so maybe they will see everyone's input and realize that implementing controls such as NO HOOK TURNS, mandatory landing patterns, and maybe mandatory safety briefings are "a way" to be safe and encourage more people to skydive with them.

I know a DZ with similar safety rules (No hook turns etc) and we have been very lucky so far with injuries due to a concerted emphasis on safety.

Please continue to post, and I am still curious if anyone else has seen similar restrictions.

Thanks...
Weaves
(Mark)