PC In Tow

[dove 0]

Merrick's situation brings up a question for me as I've always pictured myself trying to manually extract the pin first too. It seems to have worked for Merrick. But now that I think of it... if you have a COLLAPSED PC in tow would it make any difference? If it doesn't present enough drag to extract the pin, wouldn't it also be too weak to get the bag off your back and the canopy out of the bag? Any first-hand experience would be especially helpful. Thanks!
dove

[freeflir29 0]

I have known several people that did exactly as Merrick. It seems to be instinct to want that bag out of the container. The smart thing is to execute your emergency procedures. (Lets not start the whole debate as to which procedure is best) Also, everyone I know that has done that usually got to the ground saying "That was stupid!!" "Here I come to save the BOOBIES!"

[Hooknswoop 19]

In some cases, like on one of my rigs, it takes more force to open the container than to deploy the main. It depends on fall rate, type of container, how tight the closing loop is, how tight the main d-bag fits into the container, how big the PC is, what shape the PC is in, and how heavy the main and D-bag are.
On tandems, a fully inflated drogue opens the container, then the drogue partially (mostly) collapses and pulls the D-bag out of the container for the rest of the deployment.
Hook

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Hey little Dove, how's Florida?
Okay, my opinion here is that avoidance is the best form of mitigation.
When using packers, I set my own brakes, cock my own PC, reset my own slider. If the packers are having a busy day, I'll run the line check as well to make sure the lines are free.
When I'm packing myself, I do the things described above, but when I'm about to sort out the PC, I wave the thing about a couple of times to make sure it inflates.
I ALWAYS check the wee window as part of my own pre jump kit check, in the UK (and other coutries) this will also be checked at flight line checking.
It probably doesn't answer your q, but I think Hooknswoop covers the salient issues.....
Cya
D
GR# 37
Remember how lucky you are to see and touch the sky; the blind may only dream.

[dove 0]

Actually, only cutaway I've ever had was a PC in tow. So maybe that's why it's on my mind. I always pack my own rig so I've had no problems since (cutaway was on rental stuff). I am glad I cutaway cause it came out of the container and the d-bag when the reserve came out. In retrospect I thought maybe I should have tried to yank the bridle (I did wack the rig with my elbow and try to shake it loose). In any event I landed on my feet under a good reserve so I am happy. Cheers!
dove

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"I landed on my feet under a good reserve so I am happy"
I'm happy too
Cya
D
GR# 37
Remember how lucky you are to see and touch the sky; the blind may only dream.

[billvon 2,991]

>If it doesn't present enough drag to extract the pin, wouldn't it also be too weak to
>get the bag off your back and the canopy out of the bag?
Depends on many things, as usual. Often it will clear, especially if it's a small main, a large PC, a wide bridle, and a loose pack tray. Sometimes it will not. John Eagle had that problem a while back; tried to clear the bridle and deploy the main. It didn't work. He cut away and opened his reserve, but now that the main container was open, the main's lines bounced around and entangled his reserve PC. He finally grabbed the reserve freebag, threw it, and the reserve opened.
That, to me, is the big danger. If you have a closed container and a PC in tow, chances are your reserve PC will clear it, and you even have a pretty good chance of your reserve opening clear of the main PC. If you manually open your main container and the PC _still_ doesn't pull the main out, now you also have a mess on your back (bag, main lines, main risers) that the reserve can entangle with.
I would not try to clear a PC-in-tow, myself. Depending on the rig I would either cutaway and open the reserve or (if the riser covers are really bad) just open the reserve.
-bill von

[TEB6363 0]

I have always told people that reaching back for the bridle was a waste of time that you probably cannot afford. For $55 you can have the reserve out and repacked by the next weekend.
:::OK, Canopy is Open, No Traffic Around, .. Why are these "Extra" Lines Draping Down??, Damn!

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

I have always told people that reaching back for the bridle was a waste of time that you probably cannot afford.

This is true. I've just spent the last 10 minutes trying to find a fatality report, but I couldn't find it. The short story is that about 2 years ago a guy with 3500 jumps has a pilot chute in tow, and spent the rest of his life trying to manually pull out the bridle. If he'd just chopped and pulled, well... there's a lot of "if he'd just..." whenever we talk about fatalities.
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
AIM: andrewdmetcalfe
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

[dove 0]

Thanks guys. Time to change that picture in my head. If it ever happens again I'll stick with what worked the first time.
dove

[councilman24 37]

For a lot of people, when they recognize a PC in tow they're going to have less than 7 or 8 seconds to get something out. And do you want to put out your new snivelly canopy down there? It's not so much true these days but in the old and moldy times PC's in tow were caused by twisted belly bands (someone explain it for any under 40), twisted leg straps, flaking plated pins, etc. etc. In the unlikely (now) event you have something else causing the tow other than a tight pack job and wimpy PC, do you really want to create a horseshoe under 1500'? I watched a friend at the Richmond boogie have a PC in tow, reach back and pull the pin, create a horseshoe, end up hanging from the mess on her side in freefall spinning like a top. We watched her round reserve snake through the mess about 300' and open. She was still adding twists to the lines from the freefall spin when she landed. PC in tow was caused by twisted leg strap. I used to know one instructor who first told you to try and reach back and pull it, if that didn't work to ROLL over, reel in the PC (hang it out a car window and try it), roll back over and pull the reserve. Some time about the first roll I figure you'd go SMACK! I usually went over and straightened out the people he told this too. Couldn't tell him anything.
I had a PC in tow, my last malfunction in 1987. Cause by tight mid winter (Michigan) pack job and tired F-111 PC. Fired reserve and got both opening as I went into the top of a tree. (OK so we got out at 2000' on a demo. That was the old days.) Don't waste the time you have left.

[rgoper 0]

**In the unlikely (now) event you have something else causing the tow other than a tight pack job and wimpy PC, do you really want to create a horseshoe under 1500'? I watched a friend at the Richmond boogie have a PC in tow, reach back and pull the pin, create a horseshoe**
perhaps you could set me straight, i'm under the impression that to have a horse shoe malfunntion the pc has to still be in the boc, OR wrapped around your leg, arm, etc...i've seen training videos on how to handle horse shoe mals, and i haven't seen one yet caused by pc in tow. BUT, i'm rarely right! Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[Merrick 0]

I was really hoping that this whole discussion wouldn't be brought up again... but now that it has I'm glad it was. to answer your question a fully cocked BRAND NEW pilot-chute will create enough drag to continue with the deployment process once the pin is manually pulled (from recent personal experience). However, if I were faced with this situation again, I would simply execute my emergency procedures. In a normal deployment process the lines stretch out nice and straight behind/above you, pulling the pin yourself can put you in a compromising body position for one, and when the lines begin to deploy it is very erratic, if I hadn't thought to bring my legs in away from the mess, I very well could have had a horshoe as well after it was all said & done. So, after really thinking about it, I would simply do what I was first instructed.... even tho everything turned out fine, it was not a pretty deployment/opening and could have ended up much worse.
Now for the reasoning behind my decision: I did this because this is what I'd adopted as my SOPs (after talking with a few experienced jumpers a year or so ago) for a PC in tow, not because I couldn't afford the $55 for a repack, or any other reason. When I was packing I checked & double checked the PC, it appeared cocked..... the window was showing green and when thrown in the air would float back down nicely. The only thing that looked odd was the bunched up bridle down by the dBag, that's when I should have stopped & started asking questions..... we all have that internal voice letting us know when something's not quite right, we just have to remember to listen to it.
Just my experience.... Blues!
Merrick
"Pammi's Hemp/Skydiving Jewelry"

[Remster 30]

Richard, thats the point concilman was trying to make.
a pc in tow can be cause by either
1- a PC trying to open to main pack tray but unable to because of low force from the PC or to high a force on the pin;
2- OR a PC wraped around something with the main tray still closed.
If its 1, then reaching back and pulling the pin may get the main to open (allthough the briddle could also get wrapped on your arm)
If its 2, then by manually opening the main tary, you go from a PC in tow to a horseshoe.
Remster
Muff 914

[Hooknswoop 19]

A Pilot chute in tow can be caused by:
1. An un-cocked kill line pilot chute
2. A pilot chute that was thrown unstable or poorly and has entangled with the jumper
3. A pilot chute bridle that was mis-routed during packing
4. A worn out, out of calibration (shrunk kill line) kill line pilot chute
If #1, the pilot chute may still work, it may tow for a while, then inflate, or may never work, execute your emergency procedures. As long as you remain stable and don't entangle yourself in the pilot chute, you won't have a horseshoe malfunction. Be ready to deal with a 2 canopy out situation.
If #2, Make one attempt to clear it (if altitude permits, and it should or you are pulling too low), if unable to clear it, execute your emergency procedures. As long as the pin doesn’t get pulled in the process, you won’t have a horseshoe malfunction. Be ready to deal with a 2 canopy out situation.
If #3, Pulling on the bridle most likely won’t do anything, but if you do manage to get the pin pulled and you remain stable during this process, a normal deployment should follow. I don’t recommend reaching back and pulling the bridle, instead, execute your emergency procedures. If the bridle is mis-routed, you will not have a horseshoe.
If #4, Same as #1
Reaching back to pull the pin in a pilot chute in tow situation can make things worse, think that one through before you are ever in that situation.
Hook

[Remster 30]

Hook,
#3 may not necesserally result in a normal deployment (for example, the above descible mal on a ROL rig)
Remster
Muff 914

[Hooknswoop 19]

You're right. I was thinking more of mis-routed around the closing flaps. Been so long since I have seen a ROL I forgot. Oops :-) Thanks for catching that.
Hook

[hobbes4star 0]

ok, how do you tell if your PC is out of shape such as shrunk kill line? how long are PC's usually good for?
why jump when you can fly

[Hooknswoop 19]

Kill line pilot chutes wear at several points. The following is what to inspect and some suggestions for increasing the life span of your kill line pilot chute.
The Spectra kill line shrinks from the heat generated from sliding through the bridle as the pilot chute collapses and the bridle stretches over time, affecting the original calibration. Because the change is so gradual it often goes unnoticed until you begin to experience hesitations on deployment. To check for correct kill line length, cock the pilot chute and watch the kill line. Does it become taunt before the two white ribbons that run from the apex (the top of the pilot chute) to the bridle? If it does, then the kill line is too short, not allowing the pilot chute to completely inflate. When cocked, the two white ribbons should be taunt and there should be some slack on the kill line. Also, if the handle of the pilot chute being pulled through the small opening at the base of the pilot chute on deployment, the kill line is too short. Your rigger should be able to replace the kill line, or if the kill line was manufactured with enough excess line, your rigger can simply extend the kill line.
Check the stitching that holds your handle to the pilot chute. If the handle rips off, you would have a total malfunction. Check the bridle, especially where the pin attaches to the bridle. If any of the stitches have come out, have your rigger repair it. If the pin rips off of the bridle you would have a pilot chute in tow malfunction. As you fly your canopy, the deployment bag is free to spin around the bridle. Eventually the bridle will wear out and break at the grommet. Have your rigger use waxed nylon cord to tack both sides of the rapide link to the reinforced part of the deployment bag to prevent the bridle from rotating in the grommet. Some manufactures sew the pilot chute bridle to the deployment bag, eliminating this problem. The disadvantage of a sewn-in pilot chute is they are difficult to replace, usually a job for a rigger. Lastly, have your rigger install stainless steel rapide links instead of the plated links. They won’t corrode, reducing wear on the bridle.
Whether your pilot chute is a kill line or not, the Z-P or F-111 fabric wears just like the fabric on a canopy. The porosity of the fabric degrades with use, decreasing the drag of the pilot chute. Eventually the pilot chute will not have enough drag to deploy your main canopy, leaving you with a pilot chute in tow or a bag lock. An indication that your chute may have problems is a pause between throwing your pilot chute and the canopy coming out of the bag.
A patch on a pilot chute would be difficult to sew and could cause it to spin on deployment, creating lines twists. As the mesh wears, holes will develop. Once the mesh tears the hole will become larger quickly. Replace a pilot chute with holes in the fabric or mesh.
Checking your pilot chute every time you do your 30-day three-ring maintenance is simple and could prevent a malfunction. If you are not confident inspecting your pilot chute, have your rigger help you. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Hook

[councilman24 37]

As others have pointed out, a misrouted bridle can result in a PC in tow that cannot apply force to the main pin. The example given above is a ROL where the leg strap has been flipped through the main lift web. This results in the bridle wrapped around the legstrap and through the main lift web. So horseshoe is from risers to bridle wrapped around harness, with PC inflated merrily trying to open something. My point is that if you pull the pin on a PC in tow by hand you may be (and she did) creating a horseshoe. Again, with a BOC its harder to do, but I have seen a bridle misrouted during closing the main container that would have resulted in a PC in tow. Pulling on the bridle leading to the PC wouldn't have worked and the pin protector would have been closed. Sure, you can reach back, open the pin protector and pull the pin; but can you do it in freefall in two seconds? All of the types of tows listed are great but when you throw out at 2000' to 2500' feet and get one towing you don't have time to do anything but pull your reserve (with a nod to those who want to cutaway first.).

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Top tips as usual from Hooknswoop.
Cheers
Cya
D
GR# 37
Remember how lucky you are to see and touch the sky; the blind may only dream.

[Pammi 0]

Thank you guys for the discussion. I've wondered about this since it happened, and actually hadn't thought of the fact that a collapsed pilotchute, even after the pin's pulled out, might not be enough to get the canopy out properly. It really hit home how much more serious everything could have been. It also reconfirmed my own thoughts on most mals. A very smart JM/S&TA once told me that you will take extra seconds trying to remember/figure out for each scenerio and set of circumstances exactly what you planned to do for them...time wasted. Do what you were taught. Three handles. No confusion. Keeps things simple and saves valuable time.
'Nuthin

[hobbes4star 0]

hook; thanks for the info, good to know all of these things, thanks everyone for the info...
blue skies
why jump when you can fly

[Cornholio 0]

Quote

The only thing that looked odd was the bunched up bridle down by the dBag, that's when I should have stopped & started asking questions..... we all have that internal voice letting us know when something's not quite right, we just have to remember to listen to it.

I recently purchased my first collapseable (sp) for my rig. I have jumped it two times and love the opening. However on the last pack, I noticed what you just mentioned. Looking at the window, it was green and the PC does float down to the ground in an "open" position. However, this bunched up bridle has made me think about checking/re-cocking it again before deployment.
I plan on popping the pin, pulling out my D-bag and re-cocking it before I jump next time.
My question is - is this normal ? (the bunched up bridle above the pin and before the d-bag ?) If I pull it to take the slack out, it does pull the white string (forget what it's called) and it will make the window turn from green to white. Is this safe to jump, even though throwing the PC it does appear to be catching air ??
__________________________________________
If first you don't succeed....skydiving is not for you.

[Remster 30]

Bill Booth did a very comprehensive post on impreoperly made PCs afew weeks back... and posted pic on the technical page opf the RWS website... have a look...
Remster
Muff 914