The Bladder Cops Question

[ScratchTX 0]

Sure, I think drug testing is an excellent substitution for talking to people, creating a culture of trust and accountability, and dealing with risky situations and people directly. Who wants to do THAT anymore, really?

Saying that drug testing makes skydiving safer is like CYPRESes making skydiving safer -- it only addresses one specific problem but is sometimes treated like a panacea for all ills and dangers. I think it can give a false sense of security.

Just to clarify things: discussing whether or not staff should be jumping high is an entirely different question than whether or not staff should be drug tested.

DZ staff who are high at work should be let go, and I would not want someone to jump with an instructor who is under the influence. I would not want them to jump with an instructor who is overly cocky, hungover, sick, had an inflated sense of their own competency, was motivated more by money than love of teaching and concern for safety... etc.

Random performance testing on the other hand, I would actually have no problem with -- with a flight simulator kind of skydiving simluation, or random check dives with anther instructor thowing unexpected wrenches into the works. But I think the obsession with drug testing is entirely the wrong answer. It does not ensure an instructor is safe, it only says if they have taken certain substances within a certain period of time.

So, in skydiving, excessive drinking is well accepted; overconfidence is often tolerated, jumping after being dumped by your spouse or chewed out by someone is considered okay, but someone using illegal drugs on their own non-skydiving time must be stopped for safety reasons? The logic is just not there, sorry. And so I think the reasons are not safety reasons, but are CYA reasons, and that is a very slippery slope.

So I think the Sk/cratches concur on this one.

(And, FWIW, even though I hate that I even have to add this, I would have clean tests if I ever took one, I am not an instructor, and do drink alcohol, and am familiar with problem irresponsible drug use and associated issues.)

(Oh, and I have a CYPRES, too) :>)

--Scratch

[Zenister 0]

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If mandatory drug testing were a government requirement on all citizens then I'd agree that would constitute an invasion of privacy.

government propaganda and under the table influence pretty much means that it is a defacto requirement if you dont want to be labeled without cause, persecuted and thereby lose business simply by standing up for individual responsibility.

and so the slide to tyranny continues..sad that this was once a country that valued freedom

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[billvon 3,009]

>I see it as no different from the requirements that I turn up on time for my job . . .

Imagine that you have to turn up on time for your job, but can be fired for being on time because your boss has a clock that's only right 97% of the time - but your cubicle mate comes in two hours late all the time and is never fired. One of the biggest problems with drug testing is that the false positive rate is around 3% on standard drug tests, and things from poppyseed bagels to bladder infections can cause a false positive. On the other hand, if you're a heavy marijuana user and know what you're doing, you can beat the test easily. Not very fair, and in the case of skydiving, not conducive to increasing safety.

[skymedic 0]

Correct me if I'm wrong bill but they do have tests for the false postives...such as the poppy seed issue and ephedra comes up as a amphetamine...but there are ways to double test to rule it out as one from the other....

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[ScratchTX 0]

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>I see it as no different from the requirements that I turn up on time for my job . . .

Imagine that you have to turn up on time for your job, but can be fired for being on time because your boss has a clock that's only right 97% of the time - ...

Or, that your boss has decided that in order for you to get to work on time, you need to leave your house at 8:35 AM and take the freeway, or be fired. This is because some people were ticketed for speeding on local roads on their way to work and it was making a bad name for the company. So he installed a video camera in your car and it showed that yesterday, you left your house at 8:40 and took local roads... So even though you got to work on time and endangered no one on your drive there, you were fired anyway.

What are the arguments there? Do you say "Well if you just leave for work on time and follow the requirements of your employer, what's the problem? It's his right to decide what he wants from you." Or "As long as it's not a requirement that all employers put video cameras in employee's cars it doesn't bother me -- I can get another job if I don't like it?" Where do you draw the line? (And no fair turning it into an argument about the recklessness of speeding on local roads, or the inaccuracy of speedometers, or the weak morals of people who sleep late...)

[Tf15 0]

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>I see it as no different from the requirements that I turn up on time for my job . . .

Imagine that you have to turn up on time for your job, but can be fired for being on time because your boss has a clock that's only right 97% of the time - but your cubicle mate comes in two hours late all the time and is never fired. One of the biggest problems with drug testing is that the false positive rate is around 3% on standard drug tests, and things from poppyseed bagels to bladder infections can cause a false positive. On the other hand, if you're a heavy marijuana user and know what you're doing, you can beat the test easily. Not very fair, and in the case of skydiving, not conducive to increasing safety.

Since these are well known issues, they can be dealt with, just like the snowstorm that caused many employees to be late in the northeast this morning.


My kid had to submit to random drug testing to be on his high school gymnastics team (or any varsity sports team). Some parents sued. Case went all the way to the State Supremes, who upheld the school's position, in part *because* the school had a protocol in place to deal with such issues.

If you don't like the odds the solution is simple: don't apply for a job at a testing DZ.

Three times is enemy action

[Tf15 0]

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>I see it as no different from the requirements that I turn up on time for my job . . .

Imagine that you have to turn up on time for your job, but can be fired for being on time because your boss has a clock that's only right 97% of the time - ...

Or, that your boss has decided that in order for you to get to work on time, you need to leave your house at 8:35 AM and take the freeway, or be fired. This is because some people were ticketed for speeding on local roads on their way to work and it was making a bad name for the company. So he installed a video camera in your car and it showed that yesterday, you left your house at 8:40 and took local roads... So even though you got to work on time and endangered no one on your drive there, you were fired anyway.

What are the arguments there? Do you say "Well if you just leave for work on time and follow the requirements of your employer, what's the problem? It's his right to decide what he wants from you." Or "As long as it's not a requirement that all employers put video cameras in employee's cars it doesn't bother me -- I can get another job if I don't like it?" Where do you draw the line? (And no fair turning it into an argument about the recklessness of speeding on local roads, or the inaccuracy of speedometers, or the weak morals of people who sleep late...)

I say that supply and demand will fix the situation. If the employees leave en-mass, the boss will have to change his policy or go out of business. Otherwise, either accept the policy or look elsewhere for a job. No-one is compelled to be a jump pilot or TM.

Three times is enemy action

[Tf15 0]

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If no one EVER jumped high, then of course this testing would not be necessary. Unfortunately, not all adults ACT like adults. I would be willing to bet that many more people jump high than we like to admit.

Why do I believe this? Look at the number of people in this country who drive while intoxicated. Everyone knows it's dangerous, but many people believe they are OK enough to drive. I think it is the same with many drug-using skydivers. Sure there are also those that keep the two activities separate, but do you want to trust your life to assuming that the guy you are jumping with is mature enough to make the right decision?

Though I agree with many of your points, I say again: If people weren't doing it, we wouldn't have to test for it.

Rock

My opinion on this topic was formed during a visit to a (now defunct) south Florida DZ where it seemed everyone except me was smoking pot between loads and all evening. The DZO was passing the stuff around. I didn't see the pilot smoking, but the instructors were. The bunkhouse stank of MJ smoke. I never went back, nor do I wish to experience anything like it again. I was kind of pleased to hear that they had gone Tango Uniform.

Three times is enemy action

[jdfreefly 1]

I believe in personal liberties. I also believe in the right of an employer to make money and protect himself/herself in the process.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[dsbbreck 0]

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So this looks to me like a ploy for advertising and attacking
the other dropzones.

Since you don't jump, work at or support this particular DZ in any way, one might suggest that the only reason you post this is to attack this particular drop zone.

David

"Socrates wasn't killed because he had the answer.......he was killed because he asked the question."

[jeremyneas 0]

Skratch,
I like DJan and she has nothing but good things to say about you. So there is no disrespect intended in this:

Onward I write.

To clairify, the DZ that has instituted this new policy is Mile-Hi Skydiving, in Longmont CO. This year Mile-Hi is going from a turbine DZ to a Multi-Turbine DZ. The owner does not lease any of his planes. There is major equity in this business, to include 13 new Sigma Tandem Systems to replace older Strong Systems. The king air had to replace some secondary flight control surfaces. The 206 just got overhauled and painted, and a new hanger is being built for the Twin Otter. With all this it only takes one incident, to break it down to nothing.

The FAA mandates drug testing in all areas of aviation EXCEPT skydiving. We are self regulating, and with that comes the DZO's right to test for narcotics in instructors.

Here are some of my problems with recent events.

ONE
1) We all signed a sub-contractor agreement when we started working that specifically says that we are ok with being tested anytime.
2) We sign a form on any day we work that we are free of illegal narcotics, and alcohol.

The problem: If we are ok with it when we signed, and our boss gives us notice that after 8 years of being in business that the first testing will be this season, then why are we preaching about civil rights and marketing ploys NOW?!?

TWO
Skratch, you are writing the post, but you don't work at Mile-Hi, DJan does. DJan called after the notice to say she will not be working at Mile-Hi anymore because of the testing. DJan should have been making this post in defence(?!?), there is an impression of a smokescreen through you!

DJan is our Regional Director, she is an AFF I/E, she should be setting the standard. We look to her for leadership in safety and safe skydiving practices. NOT dodgeballing around civil practices!!

THREE (mix of one and two)
It's all about the image. If someone waves the magic plastic cup at you and you run away screaming crap about civil liberties and trust, your credibility just went to crap.

Take the test, make the DZO pay for it, pass it, gain your credibility as an upstanding drug free instructor, then start preaching (and make sure YOU are preaching). Your bark will be much louder and have plenty of bite.

Look I'm not an idiot, i'm majoring in Marketing, and this IS a good thing to slap on a website to attract potential first jumpers, and familys. I also know that drug users mostlikely know how to beat the test anyways. This is a little more information a DZO can load up on in a potential court case, it may be the deciding factor when it comes to cash time.

I think what it comes down to is what everyone already knows. You don't like it, leave, start your own DZ, have plenty of equity and time invested, then answer the question.

The poll for drug testing should be split between 4 catagories of people at DZ's.
1) General Skydiving
2) Instructors
3) DZOs
4) Students

You mentioned an "unwarranted intrusion into people's private lives". What happens if an incident of an instructors mistake causes a lawsuit against the DZ? What happens if they find out later that the instructor was high at the time? WHAT HAPPENS in court when the judge and jury find out that the DZO make NO PREVENTATIVE actions to stop this?!? The state will make a major WARRENTED intrusion into the DZO's life, and possibily effect all the jumpers at the DZ.

We OWE it to the people that pay us, to do the best job we can deliver. The Students and the DZO or DZ Manager that hires you.

I think the fact that skydivers are a cool, laid back, free lovin bunch makes drug testing a stand against our core values, and that is where the tension lies.

In my opinion i would say that all AFF and most Tandem Instructors are really keyed in, and shouldn't have any problems with any type of testing.

As a matter of fact, DJan was the only instructor to protest the testing thus far (at Mile Hi). Frankly, I personally am a little disappointed in her as an elected official of USPA, and as an AFF I/E.

Hate to break it to everyone waking up to the 20th and 21st century, but we are in the age of lawsuits. Welcome...enjoy...piss!!!

Jeremy Neas
Happily flowing Instructor,
Mile-Hi Skydiving Center

[scl 0]

No drug testing will not elimiate hangovers, tiredness, idoicy, or lots of other things that make a JM less competent. It may not eliminate drug use by staff all together. But there are only a few things a DZO can control about his staff, and the rest he has to leave up to trust, that his staff will make the right decisions. DZOs are in a tough position because when choosing potential staff, they have to decide "who is least likely to get my customers killed?" Any employer takes risks on new hires, but few take a risk this great. Even with drug testing, the DZO is still going to have to have lotsa faith in his staff, and monitor them carefully throughout the season--who comes in hungover? who can't flare? who forgets to debrief his students?--I would bet that most DZOs watch these things in all their employees. Drug testing is just another precaution, implemented in many cases only when former employees made stupid mistakes.

As for personal liberties, no one has a constitutional right to be employed at any particular dz. I don't think it's discrimination that someplace won't hire me as a TM just because I choose not to have a TM rating. It's the business owner's responsibility to determine to the best of his ability whether or not you are qualified to do the job safely. He only has a few tools at his disposal for making that determination. It would be nice if we could all just trust each other, but too many staff members have violated that trust and caused DZOs to get burned.

[billvon 3,009]

>Correct me if I'm wrong bill but they do have tests for the false
> postives...such as the poppy seed issue and ephedra comes up as
> a amphetamine.

For the most part, yes. GC/MS (the 'expensive' test) will catch the bladder infection and ephedra issues but not the poppy seed issue, since that is so similar to the chemical being tested for that it shows up the same even on a chromatograph. It will also not catch the false negatives (of course.)

To me, the danger in relying on such testing to ensure safe skydiving instructors is that the _real_ offenders (i.e. the regular users who have been busted before and have learned to beat the test) are going to continue to use. And once you have a test in place, their negative tests are going to be a nearly bulletproof defense against anyone taking action against them.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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DJan is our Regional Director, she is an AFF I/E

No, she isn't. She is an AFF Instructor and AFF Evalutator, and Regional Director.

If she chooses not to subject herself to drug testing, what do you care? That is her right.

Hook

[mustard 0]

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DJan is our Regional Director, she is an AFF I/E, she should be setting the standard. We look to her for leadership in safety and safe skydiving practices. NOT dodgeballing around civil practices!!

Jeremy, you're a lot younger than I am (you may have noticed :-) Because of that, I figure once you get to my age you'll have opinions based on experience, as I do. It seems to me that if you are thinking that my stand against random drug testing shows that I am against safety, then there's something really really wrong here.

One day far in the future you may look back at these times and notice that America took a turn toward a police state somewhere around the end of the twentieth century. This may actually be OK with you, because you come from a different era than me; you are used to surveillance and piss testing, but I'm not. One thing that I will always cherish is the freedom of expression and the freedom of choice that we have in America. My choice comes from deeply held convictions. Basically I don't have to submit. I have choices here, too.

I will continue to support Mile Hi, but not as an instructor. I will continue to pay attention to significant and relevant issues in skydiving, especially in our region, because it means everything to me to make a difference in the skydiving culture, however small.

This is one way I choose to make a difference, by standing up to a rule that is personally offensive to me. Hope this helps you to understand.

***
DJan

[Zenister 0]

Amen.

it scares me that people who grow up "living in a cage" think everyones world should share their view, and persecute those who do not.

thank you for standing up for individual responsibilityand personal freedom.


i intend no offense to the previous poster, but the mind set always seems to be "if your not doing anything wrong why do you care if your searched or not??"

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[flyangel2 2]

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THREE (mix of one and two)
It's all about the image. If someone waves the magic plastic cup at you and you run away screaming crap about civil liberties and trust, your credibility just went to crap.

Take the test, make the DZO pay for it, pass it, gain your credibility as an upstanding drug free instructor, then start preaching (and make sure YOU are preaching). Your bark will be much louder and have plenty of bite.

Why should DJan have to prove anything? Just because someone doesn't do a piss test, do you assume they are doing drugs?

Jeremy, I worked as the office manager at Mile Hi for years, and yes, I know what happens behind closed doors. Jeff says that he isn't using the piss test as a "advertisement" tool. I then dare him to not post that on any of his advertisements or his web site that he is "Drug Free".
I as an experience jumper I take offense to having one DZ over the other use the "Drug Free" card when advertising. Reason being, I have the choice to jump where I want and when. Now picture this: A friend comes to me and says that she/he was looking around at the different DZs to go and make a Tandem at, and she/he ran across one DZ web site. The site stated that all their JMs are drug free. Now, my friend goes to the other web sites of the DZs in the state, and noticed that nothing about being drug free was mentioned on their web sites. Does that make them less safe? My friend now ask me, "Where do you jump?" I tell her/him, and they are shocked that I'm jumping at a DZ that doesn't do drug testing, she/he now is asking if I'm involved in anykind of drug use. Guilt by association. Just because a DZ doesn't do drug testing, does that make them quilt of doing drugs? I don't think so, but then some DZs don't have to yell and scream and let the world know just how great they are. Their personalities and how well they work with fellow jumpers and staff show what they are about.
I think if a DZO is worried that someone is doing drugs, then take that JM aside, talk to them, then do a test. Why does the DZO feel they have to test everyone. I understand you saying that Jeff wants to protect what he's got, but does he really think that any of his staff is showing up on drugs?

Sorry if this posting is coming off a tad strong, but when you attack one of my good friends I can't sit by and watch. DJan has nothing to prove to you.
I'm sure I won't be much welcomed back to Mile Hi after this post, but oh well. There are other DZs to jump at.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[jeremyneas 0]

Thanks for replying DJan,

While I don't agree with your position, i do respect it. It moreso angers me when good instructors quit over (what I think are) trivial matters.

Being in the military my whole life drug testing is just another day to do.

Make sure you get me on the load next time your there fun jumping.

Jeremy

[b1jercat 0]

Right on the money jeremyeas. I work in an industry where drug testing is a common business practice. I piss in a cup everywhere I work and you can bet your ass I'm on the clock when I do. Fact of the matter is I'll spread my legs for anybody. show me the money. blueskies

[skydyvr 0]

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If someone waves the magic plastic cup at you and you run away screaming crap about civil liberties and trust, your credibility just went to crap.

Djan's credibility has gone UP several notches with me, for all the reasons she put down.

. . =(_8^(1)

[nightjumps 1]

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One thing that I will always cherish is the freedom of expression and the freedom of choice that we have in America.

Djan, I respect your position and your accomplishments. I too, am from your generation. The courts have held that the Freedom to Choose is the Freedom to Choose unwisely, EXCEPT......when another person's life is directly or indirectly your responsibility.

I seriously doubt the parents of those dead students would believe the freedom of choice overturns their expectations of; or the need for an imposed drug-free USPA Instructor.

You've been around skydiving enough to know, have seen, have read about AFF or Tandem Instructors involved in a fatality where there has been a positive test for drugs on the coroners toxicology report.

When this happens we all say, "How stupid was that?!?!." But yet, it happens again.

You stated to Jeremy;

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It seems to me that if you are thinking that my stand against random drug testing shows that I am against safety, then there's something really really wrong here.

So, I must ask, as one who holds a leadership position in the USPA - if you don't like the urine test as a means of preventing another similiar occurence...

What are you "for" to ensure this type of incident doesn't recur and the expectations of drug-free USPA Instructors be met, while protecting the Freedom of Choice?

...Bigun

[D22369 0]

Djan's credibility has gone UP several notches with me, for all the reasons she put down.

--->ditto

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[covey 0]

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You've been around skydiving enough to know, have seen, have read about AFF or Tandem Instructors involved in a fatality where there has been a positive test for drugs on the coroners toxicology report.

When this happens we all say, "How stupid was that?!?!." But yet, it happens again.

Does the toxicology report show when the drug was taken? Does it prove hands down that he/she was under the influence at the time of the accident.

Believe those who are seeking truth. Doubt those who find it. -Andre Gide

[nightjumps 1]

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Does the toxicology report show when the drug was taken? Does it prove hands down that he/she was under the influence at the time of the accident.

Yes, to both questions.

[skymedic 0]

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Djan's credibility has gone UP several notches with me, for all the reasons she put down.

Unfortunately for me...I do not see it the same way...I have lost some respect for her, even with all of her past accomplishments.

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....