Leaving "crotch" from a Cessna?

[steve1 5]

When jumping our club's 206 we will usually put someone in the crotch position on the wing strut on exit. This involves placing one foot on the step, and having your back to the wind as you sit in the crotch of the wing strut. We are now being told not to put anyone in the crotch for safety reasons. Something to do with an accidental firing of the reserve could rap a canopy around the wing strut. Can anyone elaborate further on this, and is this a dangerous practice? I do remember brushing a guys rip cord handle once as I climbed past the guy sitting crotch and as I reached for the strut with one hand.......Steve1

[councilman24 37]

Skydivers have been doing this ever since we started trying to get four people out of a 182 together. Occasionally a main pin gets knocked loose and drops a bag in front of the strut. Additionally any reserve that fires in that location would probably go over the wing or more likely under the strut. I can't remember an incident with the reserve firing but it may have happened. Is this dangerous? Perhaps, but so is life. With everyone being so paranoid about rigs being freefly safe and the general improvement in rig design I would expect it to happen less in the future than in the past. This was never common. I remember a few reports in the 25 years I've been jumping. But if the "club" or owner of the plane doesn't want to add the risk, it's their decision.

Terry

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[dterrick 0]

Heya Steve!

That's ONE possible outcome. I too have been cautioned about this exit at 160 jumps despite the fact that it was 'shown' to me by a local coach as a great 2 way exit (crotch goes into a headdown-ish dive on the slide while linked in double shoulder grips with poised). I love that exit.

We have an early Cessna (narrorw fuselage, taller landing gear) and there's not a lot of room out there. Yes, you could have a reserve fire but you could also snag a flap on the strut and have a premature opening somewhere in the dive. Or, as you rotate over on exit you could catch your poptop on the door (I fly a Racer and that's my big concern). Others will likely elaborate but those are the biggies that were given to me as reasons to avoid the position.


The bottom line is that if your DZ has a policy it's better to follow it than to push your luck and get grounded. At our DZ it's not prohibited but discouraged to all but the most experienced jumpers with very secure gear.

-Dave

Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney)

[jlmiracle 7]

When I jumped at a dz that had a cessna with a strut, I preferred the crotch position. When I moved to a new dz with a cessna I always volunteered for that slot. Everyone asked me aren't you scared that your reserve is going to fire into the prop and rip your head off? I said no. At that point in time I had never heard it was a problem. A simple pin check before exiting will lower the probabilty of a pre-mature opening on the strut.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[AggieDave 6]

I would think that the 2 other positions on the step would be more dangerous in that regard, since people seem to have a bad habit of brushing the back of their rigs (pin side) against the door while climbing out, etc.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[diverdriver 5]

Quote

Skydivers have been doing this ever since we started trying to get four people out of a 182 together. Occasionally a main pin gets knocked loose and drops a bag in front of the strut. Additionally any reserve that fires in that location would probably go over the wing or more likely under the strut. I can't remember an incident with the reserve firing but it may have happened. Is this dangerous? Perhaps, but so is life. With everyone being so paranoid about rigs being freefly safe and the general improvement in rig design I would expect it to happen less in the future than in the past. This was never common. I remember a few reports in the 25 years I've been jumping. But if the "club" or owner of the plane doesn't want to add the risk, it's their decision.

Terry

Actually there was a reserve firing that took the jumper over the wing in that position. It decapitated her.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[billvon 2,991]

>Actually there was a reserve firing that took the jumper over the wing
>in that position. It decapitated her.

In another incident, a jumper in the vee fell backwards when the aircraft stalled; the prop took his leg off.

[jlmiracle 7]

Quote

Actually there was a reserve firing that took the jumper over the wing in that position. It decapitated her.

So the reserve when over the wing? The wing is above the person's head, so I'm trying to figure this out. ( I heard that story too when I got to the dz and I volunteered to take the crotch position.

I would think falling backwards would be a more likely senario. When jumped the Beaver doing 8-way always had 2 people on the other side of the strut doing high wheel and low wheel.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[councilman24 37]

bill and driver,

I must of been snoozing during those two incidents because I don't remember them at all. Recent or long long ago? Falling backwards seems weird to me. Even in a stall. Must have really been sitting back (forward) a long ways. Or Bill, was this the guy doing a bat hang and got his leg into the prop? I think that was during a stall.

Anyway, it definately has its problems. But it's useful. Does require care and training. What do you guys think? Should DZO's/pilots ban it? After 40 years.

Terry

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[diverdriver 5]

Quote

bill and driver,

I must of been snoozing during those two incidents because I don't remember them at all. Recent or long long ago? Falling backwards seems weird to me. Even in a stall. Must have really been sitting back (forward) a long ways. Or Bill, was this the guy doing a bat hang and got his leg into the prop? I think that was during a stall.

Anyway, it definately has its problems. But it's useful. Does require care and training. What do you guys think? Should DZO's/pilots ban it? After 40 years.

Terry

I don't think they have to ban it. I just think people need to know how to do it and know the risks. The first person on the step should be the far person out. The next out should be the person in the V. The next is the person in front of the one in the V so that no one has to crawl out across anyone really. The final is the one in the door.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[sundevil777 102]

I really like being forward of the strut on a Porter, facing backwards, foot on wheel, diving exit below the strut.

I guess it is similarly dangerous, but a lot of fun.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[murrays 0]

In about 1980, poor rig design led to a reserve firing on a Canadian jumper named Zoltan Pegan who was in the V of a 182. His reserve pulled him over the wing and he sustained spinal injuries as the back of his neck slammed into the wing. He was left paralyzed from the wais t down..and likely had some impairment of his arms as well, I am not certain of the exact extent of his injuries.

His reserve fired because when he leaned forward and bent his back the reserve cable wasn't long enough and his pin(s) pulled.

I have never heard of the decapitation and prop strike incident before. I don't feel this is something to worry about. Tens of thousands of 4 way jumps have been made with someone in the V with almost no problem. Chris' description of the exit order is correct. I would add that if you are in the V to guard your reserve handle when the person on the step is getting into position as lower experience people aren't always watching what they are grabbing when they try to grab the strut. Modern rigs should all have proper reserve cable and cable housing lengths to prevent accidental firings. Be sure your reserve closing loop is in good shape, properly tensioned, etc.

--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

[steve1 5]

Quote

I really like being forward of the strut on a Porter, facing backwards, foot on wheel, diving exit below the strut.

I guess it is similarly dangerous, but a lot of fun.

One of the guys on our five-way scramble team (this past weekend) wanted to do this one since we weren't supposed to put anyone in the crotch. I've never seen it done, but it would give everyone on the step more room. What we finally did was to put the 2nd guy out with his right foot on the step and his two hands on the trailing edge of the door. This put him behind the people on the step and this left a lot of room for the three people on the step. The last guy dove out the door. This floater would leave on set and then float up to the formation. It worked great until one guy counted too fast and banged into him on exit. This kind of funnelled the first three people out on that jump.....Steve1

[councilman24 37]

Quote

The first person on the step should be the far person out. The next out should be the person in the V. The next is the person in front of the one in the V so that no one has to crawl out across anyone really. The final is the one in the door.

Actually, IMHO, this make the person in student climp over and reach around the one in the crotch. Usually the person in student has one hand outside the person in the crotch on the strut and one hand on the back of the door frame. I prefer to go out third into the crotch, sliding back from behind the pilots seat and out with out turning around. This requires keeping your rig clear but I've done it alot. But it doesn't matter to me. I'll climb in either order in either position. I'm usually doing this with newbies and do what they prefer.

Terry

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[dgskydive 0]

I started at a 182 dropzone and never saw this as a big problem. I saw more then a few premature deployments off of the step but never one in the V. Not saying it couldn't happen, just never saw it. IMHO it would take very special circumstances to have your reserve go over the wing. Under the strut seems more likely to me. But never say never. I don;t think it should be banned by any means. I sat in that position a lot. In fact I prefered it. I even shot Tandems from that spot on a few occasions. I could never keep them in frame throught the entire exit though. I liked sittng there because of seeing a few tandems open on the step(short cables). I was afraid I was gonna catch on in the face.

Dom

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I have always (23 years skydiving in January) preferred to leave from the V. I am always second out and have never experienced a problem with the number three guy fighting to get around me. Maybe that's a product of my five foot seven frame. If that is a problem, then I would recommend putting your smallest person in the V. That or the thinnest person. I, also, have seen premature deployments off a Cessna, but have never even heard of any of the three nightmares you guys have listed. You would think that if it was going to get ugly, it would have been so back when we were jumping old original Wonderhogs and other rigs with, by today's standards, incredibly bad pin protection. Nowadays, I could hardly imagine a person having this happen to them, but I guess we should "never say never."

That said, I am not about to stop getting in the V, nor will I stop teaching it as the preferred method to get a four way team outside a plane with "usable" four-way grips. I will, though, continue to watch my handles and teach others to do the same.

Chuck Blue
D-12501

[billvon 2,991]

>Or Bill, was this the guy doing a bat hang and got his leg into the
>prop? I think that was during a stall.

His name was Mike, and I believe he still jumps at Elsinore. I thought he was in the vee, but now Amy says he was doing a hanging exit when the plane stalled.

[murrays 0]

Quote

You would think that if it was going to get ugly, it would have been so back when we were jumping old original Wonderhogs and other rigs with, by today's standards, incredibly bad pin protection. Nowadays, I could hardly imagine a person having this happen to them, but I guess we should "never say never."

In the Canadian incident that I am familiar with, pin protection wasn't a factor, just a reserve ripcord cable that was too short. Crappy thing to put a guy in a wheel chair for life.

I think rigs today are better, way better...if packed properly but I remember a post by Wendy Faulkner in the CRW forum in which she detailed a bunch of premature one-pin deployments. It seems to me that closing loop length has to be right and adequate tension applied or they can open a bit too easily.

The only unintentional reserve deployment that I have seen was a tandem Vector rig that opened as my buddy left the step with a passenger. This was in 1985, before the reserve flaps were changed to prevent the top flap from being able to snag lines. In this case, he was doing a poised exit off a 182, the student was big and pushed him up against the door. When he stepped back, the flap caught, bent and pushed the pin out of the loop. Instant reserve. This was also pre-drogue so there was no problem with him throwing a drogue out as he was planning on doing a freefall before deploying.

Take care of your gear, watch your handles and being in the V isn't a problem.

--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

[diverdriver 5]

Ok, I knew I just had to spend some time going back through my reports listed on my SITE and find the report I was refering to. Now, it doesn't say the jumper was decapitated so I'm not sure if this is the right one. But, the reserve PC DID go over the top of the wing. I'm gonna have to try and figure whether I was told this story of the decapitation or I read it in a synopsis. I seem to remember reading it. Ok, back to digging.

Oh, and by the way....No, I don't believe it should be banned from launching from the V. The gear is much safer now and as SM1 said we still must continue to teach newbies to guard their handles no matter what.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[diverdriver 5]

And this from the old Skydiving Fatalities page. I think this is where I got the idea that a jumper was decapitated from a premature reserve deployment on the step. I knew it was a "she" but this does not say there was a decapitation. Maybe it originally said that and was changed. I dunno. Just seems to stick in my mind that I read it somewhere. http://www.skydivenet.com/fatalities/fatalities_nonus_97.html number 16.

---

8/16/97 T?nsberg, Norway AIR 25 ?? ??/??
Description: She and two others was about to do a three-way from a C-182, and she was the first one out to wait for the others. When she was standing out there waiting, she got an unintentional reserve opening, and was killed by the sudden impact with the plane. The pilot had after the incident problems with stabilizing the aircraft, but managed to gain control over it. The two other skydivers got away with the shock.
Lessons: Check your closing loops regularly! A loose reserve pack job is a definite hazard!

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[FoxHound 0]

Just use common sense when in the V. Make sure your reserve ripcord is the proper length as well as your rig. If your a fat bastard, make sure your not stretching your rig out bent over maxin out the cord. Pack responsible and you'll do just fine.

Yes there have been incidents, and yes they were due to carelessness. They didn't get in the 'V' and "out of nowhere" the reserve fired. Out of somewhere they were careless.

Fox