Spotting

[propblast 0]

Anyone got any tips on spotting? Everyone I talk to seems to rely on GPS. Id like to become proficient without that.

Propblast

[wmw999 2,452]

I'd have to say that of all the skills out there, spotting would be one of the hardest to teach over the internet.

Ask your instructor; if they pretty much trust the GPS, then if there are any folks at your DZ who have been instructing or jumpmastering since before GPS, they'd be a good start. If not, anyone who was experienced before GPS was common.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[skymick 0]

Dont use the door of the plane as a guide as the plane may be climbing or banking. Make sure you stick your head right out and look at the horizon then rotate your head 90 degrees towards the ground.

[LouDiamond 1]

I agree, spotting is NOT something that can be taught over the net. There is more to it than sticking ones head out of the door. Seek help from someone experienced at your DZ and if they don't explain it good enough keep asking around. Spotting is a learned skill that only improves with actualy doing it.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Plummet 0]

The spot is only important if you care where you land !

-Jeff.
http://www.iplummet.com

Common sense and common courtesy are NOT common.

[diverdriver 5]

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Anyone got any tips on spotting? Everyone I talk to seems to rely on GPS. Id like to become proficient without that.

You can't "rely" on GPS. Someone has to read it, understand it, and make decisions as to when to go. So whether you use an old timer putting his head out the door in back or you have a proficient pilot who understands wind drift, crab, and ground speed relationships on seperation does not matter. The only thing that matters is that you have a plan. Run the plan. Understand how to look straight down and know where you are over the ground. And if you are unsure of what is happening then don't jump. Allow people to go ahead of you if need be. Get advice on what to look for and expect.

You should ALWAYS look out the door for any air traffic that the pilot may have missed. Now, understand, there may be times you see other planes in the traffic pattern below. They will be below your deployment altitude. And really, if the plane is straight below you when you are in the plane then they won't be there when you get to their altitude. The threat comes from the side. Or from underneath the plane because you didn't look far enough under it. My suggestion is that you get ready and start looking out the window for other traffic 2 minutes before dropping. Usually the plane will have made a couple of turns getting onto jumprun during that time giving you the oportunity to scan the area well before you get over the DZ.

Hope that helps.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[kingbunky 3]

i don't know where you are (fill in your profiles people!) but here in canada spotting is covered in the PIMs (SIMs to the 'mericans). that and your instructors would be a good place to start. we are at a small cessna dz, so all our spotting is eyeballed, we don't need no steenking GPS!

"Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart."
MB4252 TDS699
killing threads since 2001

[CrazyIvan 0]

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so all our spotting is eyeballed, we don't need no steenking GPS!

Yup, same here, I think that's the best way.

__________________________________________
Blue Skies and May the Force be with you.

[diverdriver 5]

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so all our spotting is eyeballed, we don't need no steenking GPS!

Yup, same here, I think that's the best way.

Well, I'll just disagree. The GPS gives you more accurate and timely information than the eyeball can. Out of a 4-6 place Cessna sure you can spot just fine. But for large planes the jumprun needs to be fairly precise to get everyone out on one pass. That saves fuel. Sure, for safety we can always go around but constantly making 2 passes is really not needed. So, sometimes, using GPS for flying the jumprun is the best way. This doesn't mean you should never look out and down.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[Hooknswoop 19]

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The spot is only important if you care where you land !

Or don't want to hit other canopies, or hit an aircraft, or don't want to exit too far out to sea to make a dry landing, or exit too far over a lake to make it to shore, or have your main land on/near the DZ in the event of a cutaway, etc. There is also that "legally" skydivers must maintain VFR cloud clearances.

Spotting is important.

Hook

[CrazyIvan 0]

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This doesn't mean you should never look out and down.

This is what I meant.

__________________________________________
Blue Skies and May the Force be with you.

[diverdriver 5]

Oh, ok.

[AirMail 0]

At my home DZ, every student has to learn to spot. Then spot their own jump. So if they want to land at the DZ, there's a really good reason to learn correctly.

The first time I spotted for our Otter, only one jumper didn't get back. Me. I got out too soon, everybody else was right over the DZ. Oh well.

Patrick

--
It's never too late to have a happy childhood.
Postal Rodriguez, Muff 3342

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

It is a good idea to learn to spot without relying on GPS. I learned that when I was a newbie and would just jump out anytime the light was green and on occassion found myself unable to get back to the DZ or when I went to DZs that had Cesna aircraft with no GPS at all. It is better to have instructors at your DZ show you but I can give you a few tips.

Know what the upper (winds aloft) and lower winds (ground winds) are doing as this will determine how much drift you will get in freefall. You want everyone exiting to end up in "the cone" range so people aren't opening downwind of the DZ or on top of each other. Make sure when you are looking down to track your position over the ground you are looking straight down from the door and follow your eyes up to the wing of the airplane. Make sure the plane is flying straight and level by checking the wing and tail. A banking, climbing or descending airplane will give you an inaccurate spot.

Depending on how strong the winds are, determine an exit and opening point so the first group of jumpers open right over the landing area or just upwind of the DZ and continue until the last group opens with enough wind behind them to safely make it back to the DZ. Usually the exit order should be freeflyers out first since they get down faster then experienced lower opening belly flyers, then experienced higher opening belly flyers, then AFF students and last the tandems since students and tandems open higher. Some DZs will let the belly fliers out first before the freeflyers due to wind drift. Check with the load organizer. The lighter the winds, the more separation needed between groups exiting the aircraft.

Know the direction of jump run and be familiar with ground landmarks to determine exit and opening points. Always make sure your air is clear below and around you. Communicate with the pilot to make sure there is no air traffic below. Remember FAR 105 with respect to clouds. Between 1,200 and 10,000 feet MSL you should be clear of clouds 500 feet below, 1,000 feet above and 2,000 feet horizontally with 3 statute miles of flight visibility. Above 10,000 feet MSL you need 5 statute miles of flight visibility and a distance of 1,000 feet below, 1,000 feet above and one mile of horizontal distance from clouds.

I am not the expert spotter but so far that has been enough information for me to make a decent call before I exit the airplane. Hope it helps!

Blue skies.[email]

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[wmw999 2,452]

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myself unable to get back to the DZ or when I went to DZs that had Cesna aircraft with no GPS at all

Yup, spotting is important in the long run. So, frankly, is an ability to take landing off the DZ with aplomb. You really need to be able to pick a safe spot and land there without (if possible) damaging stuff, either on the ground, or your equipment. You never know when you might need that skill, and not being scared to can help your judgement in not taking a dicey landing just to land on the DZ.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[dreamsville 0]

I didn't expect that this would turn into an exit order thread, but here we are. All I'll say is that you will likely have to provide more exit separation to allow for potential wind drift of the belly flyers over the free flyers (assuming an upwind jump run) if the free-flyers are first. We've almost always had the R/W groups out first based upon the fear that an opening malfunction with drift can put an R/W person right there with the free flyer. Horizontal separation is the only ultimate prevention. I know ZHills doesn't do it this way, and I free-fly a lot, but we agree to disagree.

Back to the spotting issue. While GPS is just one tool (always do a visual prior to exit), certain pilots in this forum WALK AND MARK the waypoints on and around the DZ and store them in the GPS that will be used on the plane. I'd bet they'd tell you that, beyond that, number and size of groups and wind combinations from ground to altitude determine how they'd do jump run. Perhaps those more knowledgeable person(s) are reading and would care to elaborate.
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I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[CrazyIvan 0]

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Usually the exit order should be freeflyers out first since they get down faster then experienced lower opening belly flyers, then experienced higher opening belly flyers, then AFF students and last the tandems since students and tandems open higher.

Tandems last?....mmmmm, I thought they exited first, or that varies from DZ to DZ?

__________________________________________
Blue Skies and May the Force be with you.

[steve1 5]

There are some variables to be aware of when spotting. Such as ground winds, winds aloft, canopy you are jumping etc. What used to really mess me up when I first started spotting was not allowing enough time for everyone to climb out. I'd often give the cut right over the DZ (on a calm day), and then when everyone climbed out and was ready to go, we were way past the spot. Looking straight down is also important. Also note the direction the plane is headed when you give the cut to start crawling out. Practice makes perfect. In the old days you weren't very popular if you gave everyone a bad spot. More than once I took jump run, way to long over the middle of town. Coming down under a round with power lines, houses, and trees is no fun......Steve1

[ladyskydiver 0]

At our DZ, one of the pilots took an aerial photo of the DZ and put directions (i.e. 240, 180, etc.) on the map. Now, every day, we have a paper that says winds aloft at the various altitudes and on the photo can find where our exit point is. And, since we're looking at the aerial photo, it's really easy to find our exit spot when we're in the plane.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[AggieDave 6]

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Tandems last?....mmmmm, I thought they exited first, or that varies from DZ to DZ?

It varies. It also depends on what altitude they go out at. A lot of DZs only take Tandems to 10k, and the load up to 13k, so that would make a difference.

If not, then I honestly can't see a good reason why they should exit first. I can see quite a few bad reasons for them exiting first, though... RW-ish fall rates, opening around 5-4.5k (4.5 being the current hard deck). Slower moving canopies in traffic...the list could continue.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jerm 0]

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Tandems last?....mmmmm, I thought they exited first, or that varies from DZ to DZ?

Sure, they open at 5 and are generally relatively lightly loaded, they can get back from very long spots if they're upwind, but not necessarily so if downwind. They also tend to slide around in FF.... lots of movement + opening high is not a combination i want out ahead of me. The only place i've seen this done differently is WFFC but they tandems use a different landing area than the majority of upjumpers and are given a LONG delay.

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[betzilla 56]

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we are at a small cessna dz, so all our spotting is eyeballed, we don't need no steenking GPS!

I used to be from a place like that....I miss spotting

Onwe of the mistakes people at my old DZ often made was not climbing out early enough on low-wind days. So if there's little or no wind, you'll want to start climbing out BEFORE you pass over the target so you can jump straight over head.

[jerm 0]

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Usually the exit order should be freeflyers out first since they get down faster then experienced lower opening belly flyers,

no, really they shouldn't.

Did you really just assert that the higher-opening groups should get out ahead of the lower-opening group? Of all the arguments i've ever heard for FF out first, that's gotta be a dodgiest.

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[dreamsville 0]

Only take tandems to 10K when the rest of the load continues on to 13.5? What a gyp. I didn't realize that people did that ROUTINELY for any type of jump, except for 4-way teams, CRW, or other special requests.
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I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[AggieDave 6]

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What a gyp.

Explain why? Yeah, so they miss out on a bit of freefall, but from a DZO's standpoint, look at the cost benifets. (No Aggieland doesn't do that, some others do though).

Does the student know the difference? No. Will they still have a great experience? Yeah. Will the video still be really good? Yeah. If it was a working tandem, for an ISP program, then I could see the arguement for altitude, otherwise, I don't really see why it matters. Also, think about your average 182 DZ. Where do they jump from? Usually 10.5k (yeah, so my 182 DZ average 12k, but we're weird). So all in all, on average across the US, the exit altitude for tandems is probably around 11k. So, 1000ft is going to make all the difference to a first time jumper?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."