Cutaway

[stylin 1]

I found this video on a website, someone with a camera was filming his own cutaways. Looks like the chute had line twist and hung slider, but the line twist didnt seem all that bad. To me, it "looks" like you could spin back out of it without too much trouble. But ofcourse Im wrong since he cutaway, and noone does that just for the hell of it.

Second point, it looks like he became unstable after pulling the cutaway, or that is just his head camera moving around.

Anyone wanting to know what a cutaway looks like, here it is:

http://www.witched.de/VIDEO/Cutaway/cutaway.html

click on a link at bottom on that page to run the video.

Looking for input here, whats wrong with his chute???

[skycat 0]

Do a search on cutaways and line twists....there has been plenty of talk about both around here.

Fly it like you stole it!

[quade 4]

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I found this video on a website, someone with a camera was filming his own cutaways. Looks like the chute had line twist and hung slider, but the line twist didnt seem all that bad. To me, it "looks" like you could spin back out of it without too much trouble. But ofcourse Im wrong since he cutaway, and noone does that just for the hell of it.

Second point, it looks like he became unstable after pulling the cutaway, or that is just his head camera moving around.

Anyone wanting to know what a cutaway looks like, here it is:

http://www.witched.de/VIDEO/Cutaway/cutaway.html

click on a link at bottom on that page to run the video.

Looking for input here, whats wrong with his chute???

Any experienced skydiver would immediately recognize the issue just by looking at the still I've included with this post. Notice the angle of the horizon relative to the canopy.

The canopy does not simply have line twists, but is spinning toward the ground -- an almost sure fatal if not corrected within seconds. This happens when there is uneven tension in the lines and twists lock that into place. Depending upon the canopy and the amount of twists the skydiver may elect to immediately cutaway since on some canopies, this is not a situation that can be corrected.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[stylin 1]

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Any experienced skydiver would immediately recognize the issue just by looking at the still I've included with this post. Notice the angle of the horizon relative to the canopy.

The canopy does not simply have line twists, but is spinning toward the ground -- an almost sure fatal if not corrected within seconds. This happens when there is uneven tension in the lines and twists lock that into place. Depending upon the canopy and the amount of twists the skydiver may elect to immediately cutaway since on some canopies, this is not a situation that can be corrected.

I want to bear down on what you just said here, which has been on my mind since the beginning.

"an almost sure fatal if not corrected within seconds"

Thats what worries me. You have "seconds" to figure out whether or not it is just a simple line twist that can be corrected. And, in SECONDS, if youre wrong, an "almost sure fatal"?

I wouldnt have this problem with something like a bag lock, real easy to make a decision on that. As far as simple, correctable line twists vs the beginning of a violent spin, it almost looks to me like you just have to throw the dice and hope you made the right decision.

[quade 4]

If you drive your car and come to a red stop light with traffic crossing and you do not take action within seconds, you'll have a crash.

You can decide to save your life or not.

If you can't deal with that reality -- don't skydive.

Oh, one more thing . . . you can do everything RIGHT and still die.

Again, if you can't deal with that reality -- don't skydive.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[stylin 1]

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If you drive your car and come to a red stop light with traffic crossing and you do not take action within seconds, you'll have a crash.

You can decide to save your life or not.

If you can't deal with that reality -- don't skydive.

Oh, one more thing . . . you can do everything RIGHT and still die.

Again, if you can't deal with that reality -- don't skydive.

So youre saying that it is a gamble? The question is, is there a sure way to tell the difference between what is a simple line twist and the beginning of a fatal violent spin, within say 1-2 seconds?

The awnser to that wont determine whether I should quit skydiving, it will determine on how quick I am to pull the cutaway. You cant cutaway on every little thing that happens, I think after a while somebodys going to get the impression youre doing that just because you want to.

Its something Im going hammer the issue on this weekend with instructors. I guess they better clarify things if they dont like rooting around the desert for mains. I know line twists are pretty common.


"Oh, one more thing . . . you can do everything RIGHT and still die."

I know that, and thats a good point, but finish the sentence. You can do everything right and stil die, its all about MINIMIZING the chances of that happening.

See, you ALWAYS, and I say ALWAYS, have the chance to minimize the probablility of that happening, and you always have more than one way to do that.

I wont ramble on about it, but an AAD can MINIMIZE, pulling in a stable position can MINIMIZE, jumping on a non-windy day can MINIMIZE, the list goes on and on. Just depends on how careful you plan on being.

Same thing with driving a car if you think about it. How many times are we all more concerned with getting there a little faster than we are about not having a collision?

[billvon 3,071]

>You have "seconds" to figure out whether or not it is just a simple
> line twist that can be corrected. And, in SECONDS, if youre wrong,
> an "almost sure fatal"?

Correct.

>As far as simple, correctable line twists vs the beginning of a violent
> spin, it almost looks to me like you just have to throw the dice and
> hope you made the right decision.

Well, you have some other clues. Is the wind screaming past you? Are you starting to black out from the G forces? Can you barely get your hands over your head? Is the spin increasing in speed? Then it's probably time to get rid of it.

Are you flying along in more or less a straight line, or in a gentle turn? Does it feel like your canopy is flying normally, just turning slowly in one direction or the other? When you kick do the twists start to come out? If yes, then you can probably kick out.

Also, whether you're jumping a Manta or a Velocity 92 has some bearing on what you do.

[Slowfaller 0]

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I know line twists are pretty common.

Do a troll...er i mean search on line twists and spinning line twists....there is a big difference

Chris

--"Someday you will die and somehow somethings going to steal your carbon" -MM

[payback462 0]

i think it should also be noted that on the second video the jumper also has not only line twists but slider hangup from what looks like a tension knot.

but, hey, hes just trolling anyway, so whats it matter to him

[quade 4]

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So youre saying that it is a gamble?

Your words not mine.

We prefer the term "managed risk".

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The question is, is there a sure way to tell the difference between what is a simple line twist and the beginning of a fatal violent spin, within say 1-2 seconds?

Again, just look at the picture I posted previously.

Simple line twists will have the canopy all the way up in the blue part of the sky. Spinning line twists will put the canopy closer to the horizon -- and you'll feel the g-forces building up as well. On video it may be difficult to tell what the issue is if you're an inexperienced skydiver, but I think even a first jump student would probably recognize the situation almost instantly during an actual skydive.

On a student canopy, the spin would not be so bad that you wouldn't have a few more seconds to figure out what to do. On a more advanced canopy, the spin could create g-forces so great that you'd have to react immediately or run the risk of blacking out.

Too bad you pissed off Michele. She could tell in much better detail the story about how she had a very similar situation occur during her AFF progression.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Hooknswoop 19]

That pic looks like it has at least one step-through in the lines.

Hook

[DJL 235]

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it almost looks to me like you just have to throw the dice and hope you made the right decision.

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I guess they better clarify things if they dont like rooting around the desert for mains.

Edited troll to troll protect troll the troll.
I agree. I mean you're taking a chance by jumping anyway. tRolling the dice on something like this is no different. Also, I think it's f'd up to make people go look for your gear because you made a shitty pack. You should hold on to it until you're SURE you have a malfunction.
Edited troll to troll protect troll the troll.

This is satire, if you have any doubt, you should chop. Everyone will happily help you find your gear, give you shit for it but then ask for a copy of the video. Please read as: cutting away is cool.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[quade 4]

Maybe. It's kind of irrelevant to the discussion though. Could just be that the lower lines are twisted up a lot. Again, it's kind of irrelevant how the skydiver actually got that way, the important thing is he made the correct choice to chop it and maybe somebody can learn from that.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[stylin 1]

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That pic looks like it has at least one step-through in the lines.
Hook

Dont know what a step-through is, please explain.


Quade, Billvon - thanks for the input, I think youve both awnsered quite a few questions. Have to get back to work, but Ill go over the info later and probably print it out.

Thanks again.

[quade 4]

Guys. Until somebody proves otherwise, let's assume they're not trolling.

Maybe the kid is really trying to figure something out here.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jceman 1]

[Archie_Bunker_Voice] Aaah Jeeze! Ain't you gone yet?[/Archie_Bunker_Voice]

Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money.

Why do they call it "Tourist Season" if we can't shoot them?

[hookitt 1]

Take a look at the video. (3 megs) He gets out of the line twists and the step through appearance is gone. It was still spiraling when he got out of the twists and it was cutaway quickly there after.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[jceman 1]

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Guys. Until somebody proves otherwise, let's assume they're not trolling.

Maybe the kid is really trying to figure something out here.

Quade, given this person's short, abrasive history on DZ.com, I don't think he needs to be given the benefit of the doubt.

He has already shown that he will talk but not listen, and until he apologizes to HH and the mods for his actions on the Women's Forum and his futile attempt at multiple usernames, he can go suck eggs.

Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money.

Why do they call it "Tourist Season" if we can't shoot them?

[DJL 235]

Yeah, it would just suck if someone encountering their first cutaway (me) read this quickly before heading out to the DZ and instead of thinking procedure thought, "well that guy said he thought it was a gamble anyway and I wouldn't want to piss anyone off by making them find my gear..."

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[quade 4]

It seems to me that he came in hot and didn't flair, he may have even whacked into a few folks in the landing area and for that you may want to avoid him like the plague, but pretty much everything he said on this thread was pretty civil.

Sangiro hasn't banned him yet again, which means we're giving him the benefit of the doubt and allowing him to prove he can be civil.

Continued lashing out at him serves no purpose. It does not change the past.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 4]

Hopefully people would read and take billvon's advice before the new kid's. I mean, it's pretty easy to see that the kid doesn't really know what he's talking about.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Shark 0]

I thought he bailed???

[stylin 1]

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Hopefully people would read and take billvon's advice before the new kid's. I mean, it's pretty easy to see that the kid doesn't really know what he's talking about.

You know, this issue I bought up is a pretty sensitive, and I think you can agree, life threatening, I recognized that early in the game. I think you, Hookanswoop, Billvon with me asking questions did an outstanding job in nailing down the issue and finding some pretty good awnsers, and I think thats great. I really gave me something to go on that Ive been looking for for awhile now, hope it does the same for someone else.

Im going to put together the converstion when I have time and print it out, and I really appreciate yours and the other twos attention to the matter and taking the time out for it.

On your note here, I wasnt saying that it was a gamble, I was just challenging you to bring out a few details in the matter, just my way of getting questions awnsered. I wasnt giving advice, just looking for awnsers.

If you want to take part in the ongoing slandering and you want to insult me with things like "its pretty easy to see that the kid doesnt really know what he's talking about", well thats fine, go ahead if thats
what you want to do.

I dont have any reason to want to insult you, and I really do appreciate the advice and input, so thanks again. After a static line mishap at a smaller DZ I was extremely paranoid about going through AFF training, but info like this really helps, so Im gonna be going in there with a lot more confidence.

If you dont mind, Id like to keep talking to you if thats okay with you. I know youre a lot better than those who are just here to cause trouble.

Thanks,
Chris.

[jceman 1]

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If you dont mind, Id like to keep talking to you if thats okay with you. I know youre a lot better than those who are just here to cause trouble

We are not the ones who are here to cause trouble. Any trouble you have had has come from your own immature actions.

If you are willing to keep a civil tongue and not insult our choice of recreation/lifestyle like you did in other threads, and abide by the four simple rules HH has laid down for all of us, I think you will find us more than helpful.

It's the old saying that you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar; I think you will find that applies here quite well.

Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money.

Why do they call it "Tourist Season" if we can't shoot them?

[quade 4]

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If you want to take part in the ongoing slandering and you want to insult me with things like "its pretty easy to see that the kid doesnt really know what he's talking about", well thats fine, go ahead if thats
what you want to do.

First off, don't take too much offence because compared to me, you ARE a kid and it ain't slander if it's the truth.

Further, the truth is that if you are new to skydiving, you -don't- know what you're talking about. Again, that's not slander -- that's just fact.

You can pretty much ask me any question and I'll give you my answer to it. However, if my answer doesn't match up with the one you wanted to hear, don't complain -- you asked first.

Those ground rules intact -- fire away.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver