skybytch 273 #26 April 2, 2003 Quote"Oh, one more thing . . . you can do everything RIGHT and still die." I know that, and thats a good point, but finish the sentence. You can do everything right and stil die, its all about MINIMIZING the chances of that happening. See, you ALWAYS, and I say ALWAYS, have the chance to minimize the probablility of that happening, and you always have more than one way to do that. I wont ramble on about it, but an AAD can MINIMIZE, pulling in a stable position can MINIMIZE, jumping on a non-windy day can MINIMIZE, the list goes on and on. Just depends on how careful you plan on being. You can do everything right and still die. There is no qualifying that statement. Picture this - a guy with 20+ years in the sport, thousands and thousands of skydives, competition experience, super current, careful safe skydiver with a brand new rig (with Cypres AAD). Goes up on a 10 way competition jump (last of course), great skydive, tracks away, pulls and a line from the main catches on a grommet in the main container, leaving him dragging an entangled horseshoed mess. So he cuts it away and pulls his reserve - there was nothing else he could have done. Reserve fires into the mess above his head, entangles and he rode it down and died on impact. He did everything right. He still died. The AAD couldn't do anything to save him. He was stable, pulled on time, reacted correctly to the problem, and he still died. He rolled the dice and that time he lost. It can happen to anyone, anytime. Sure, skydiving is about managing and reducing risks, but you can't make the risks go away completely. You can have every possible safety device, be really current, fly conservative canopies, practice your emergency procedures religiously, maintain your gear anally, stay on the ground when conditions aren't right... you can do everything right and still die. That's what you need to accept if you want to skydive. That is the reality of this sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stylin 1 #27 April 2, 2003 Quote>You have "seconds" to figure out whether or not it is just a simple > line twist that can be corrected. And, in SECONDS, if youre wrong, > an "almost sure fatal"? Correct. >As far as simple, correctable line twists vs the beginning of a violent > spin, it almost looks to me like you just have to throw the dice and > hope you made the right decision. Well, you have some other clues. Is the wind screaming past you? Are you starting to black out from the G forces? Can you barely get your hands over your head? Is the spin increasing in speed? Then it's probably time to get rid of it. Are you flying along in more or less a straight line, or in a gentle turn? Does it feel like your canopy is flying normally, just turning slowly in one direction or the other? When you kick do the twists start to come out? If yes, then you can probably kick out. Also, whether you're jumping a Manta or a Velocity 92 has some bearing on what you do. That makes sense. I think long before Id start blacking out from G-forces Im going to be waving off the main. But thats pretty descriptive. Can I add one thing to this? Why in the hell not just always have a hand on the cutaway and the other on the reserve every time the chute opens? Isnt the biggest problem with violent spins with G-force, you panic, cant find the cutaway, problem escalates....ect. Why wait until it starts happening? And then you let go of them when everythings stable. First static line, I had my hand on the cutaway because the chute was taking a long time to open, got nervous, gave it a few more seconds, then everything fine. I had my hands on both saying, nuh uh, dont even fuck with me or your ass is gone. Yea I know your fucking ass BETTER open....you know you threaten it a couple of times and you get results. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #28 April 2, 2003 Quote Why in the hell not just always have a hand on the cutaway and the other on the reserve every time the chute opens? stability. you wont have it in that position. youd probablly be at least slightly head down and accelerating. also its concievable that a hard opening could cause you to pull the handles accidentally (possibly in the wrong sequence) Quote you know you threaten it a couple of times and you get results. rotfcmeo...yeah sure, your canopy really cares what you think & say about it..(hell in your case its only student gear, so your just its latest trick) btw arent you ignoring your instructors advice right now??____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,534 #29 April 2, 2003 QuoteCan I add one thing to this? Why in the hell not just always have a hand on the cutaway and the other on the reserve every time the chute opens? Isnt the biggest problem with violent spins with G-force, you panic, cant find the cutaway, problem escalates....ect. Why wait until it starts happening? And then you let go of them when everythings stable. A couple of problems. If you have a hard opening and you have your hand on the reserve handle or the cutaway, what's to say that muscle spasm won't cause you to either cut away or pull the reserve inadvertently. The chances of a hard opening are generally much greater than the chances of a malfunction. Also, you want to have your hands ready to go to your risers as soon as possible, in case you have to take evasive action. And most of us cuss at our parachutes if they open funky or slam us. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #30 April 2, 2003 QuoteGuys. Until somebody proves otherwise, let's assume they're not trolling. Maybe the kid is really trying to figure something out here. It IS April 1st.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spy38W 0 #31 April 2, 2003 QuoteIf you are willing to keep a civil tongue and not insult our choice of recreation/lifestyle like you did in other threads, I still remember when I started flying at a DZ, I didn't understand how everybody got a thrill from doing it over and over again. I thought every jump would be the same, and that Relative Work was easy, just jump out and go to your freinds to make something that looked cool. And I didn't even know what Freefly was at the time (when I found out I thought that would be cake too.) I guess I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt now too, but I'm not just going to ignore the past -- Hook high, flare on time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stylin 1 #32 April 2, 2003 Quote Quote If you want to take part in the ongoing slandering and you want to insult me with things like "its pretty easy to see that the kid doesnt really know what he's talking about", well thats fine, go ahead if thats what you want to do. First off, don't take too much offence because compared to me, you ARE a kid and it ain't slander if it's the truth. Further, the truth is that if you are new to skydiving, you -don't- know what you're talking about. Again, that's not slander -- that's just fact. You can pretty much ask me any question and I'll give you my answer to it. However, if my answer doesn't match up with the one you wanted to hear, don't complain -- you asked first. Those ground rules intact -- fire away. Guess that makes me a 43 year old kid, thanks for the complement. Yea youre right, new enough, but you know Im not totally dense either. Give me some credit. I never said that I know everything there is to know about it, and I never said I know more than you about it, so youre reading things in that arent there. What I am saying is that I know a few things, so like I said, give me SOME credit. Im not just totally dumbfounded you know, like I was when I first walked in the place. You need to understand, that when you feel threatned, then the first reaction to that is to try to eliminate the dark areas. So I did some pretty fast eliminating from the first week of involvment with it. Think about it. The first time I went up, I found myself sittiing in a Cessna with people wearing skydiving equipment, and I was totally scared shitless. Guess Im just not as brave as some of the heros around here. Then when they popped the door open, I was so terrified I thought I was having a waking nightmare. Wouldnt you be pretty motivated to learn as much as you can by the next time if you had been that terrified? I dont have any problem admitting it, yea I was chicken shit, because its the plain and simple truth, I just didnt show it. Even the young chicks there that day were braver than I was, they took it like it was nothing. Im big enough to know I can knock the living shit out of someone and now I get to go through life knowing that I acted like a complete coward. Surely you can see that after I came on here acting like a chicken shit because I had a static line incident. All this talk doesnt phase me because Ive been there. Enough said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stylin 1 #33 April 2, 2003 Quote Quote Why in the hell not just always have a hand on the cutaway and the other on the reserve every time the chute opens? stability. you wont have it in that position. youd probablly be at least slightly head down and accelerating. also its concievable that a hard opening could cause you to pull the handles accidentally (possibly in the wrong sequence) Quote you know you threaten it a couple of times and you get results. rotfcmeo...yeah sure, your canopy really cares what you think & say about it..(hell in your case its only student gear, so your just its latest trick) btw arent you ignoring your instructors advice right now?? Okay, bad idea. Yea, the latest trick. Im kidding, but I really did say that. "btw arent you ignoring your instructors advice right now??[/" Yea, I am. When I get to AFF this weekend, I need get through the issues, and Im going to do that any way I can, and then get on with it.. This is the thing that has been plaguing me since starting out, and I never got clear awnsers to it. No way im going through every jump thinking, oh shit, hope the parachute opens this time. I dont want to even have to worry about it. If it happens, Im going to reach the point where Im not going to worry about it, its either going to be, simple line twists, no problem, or "nope, I dont like this, off you go". I cant appreciate freefalling as much if I have to be worrying about that. You have to savor every second because when that chute blows open its gone. The first time, I appreciated when it blew open because I absolutely didnt like that shit, and you talk about scared, I couldnt wait till it was over. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #34 April 2, 2003 Basicly you pull high enough for you to decide if you have a landable main chute, or if you have to cutaway and land your reserve. I have 420 jumps with no cutaways but (i'd like to think) im ready for one every time. I pull high enough to not need to rush to a decision, Thats why practicing and muscle memory of emergency procedures are very important. Thats why students pull at 5500. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stylin 1 #35 April 2, 2003 QuoteBasicly you pull high enough for you to decide if you have a landable main chute, or if you have to cutaway and land your reserve. I have 420 jumps with no cutaways but (i'd like to think) im ready for one every time. I pull high enough to not need to rush to a decision, Thats why practicing and muscle memory of emergency procedures are very important. Thats why students pull at 5500. Thats what I have in mind, but 5500 is a little high isnt it? Dont forget, youre supposed to be having fun so you want enough freefall time. They tell us its going to be at 4000. At the amaller DZ, they were dropping us at 3000 for static lines. I think some people get more into parachuting than diving, that would be fine for that. To me its just there to break the fall and get you on the ground in one piece, not real interested in that part of it as far as doing 360s or whatever. I already made the decision to get an audible altimeter and use it with a wrist altimeter, but Id still want to be pretty conservative about opening high enough because of what you just said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stylin 1 #36 April 2, 2003 OMG, if you havent tried this out with sound on, try it, the first one sounds wicked. Someone said if the "wind was screaming", then at the end he says "yahoo". Guess he was having fun. I would have said "shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittttt". So a spin is when youre spinning around the parachute, not "twirling" around like I was thinking, and twirling would be line twists without going into a spin which you can get out of. I think its a little more clear now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #37 April 2, 2003 Opening too high can kill you..... Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stylin 1 #38 April 2, 2003 QuoteOpening too high can kill you..... Why is that, because someone can fall on you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #39 April 2, 2003 More like, fall through you...120mph + person under canopy = dead people.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #40 April 2, 2003 I am downloading the video now. I can see what you mean, it looks like the lines from one side are twisted together one direction below the line twists, and the other direction above the twists. Made it look like a step through. Stylin- A step through is where someone "steps through" their lines, usually while taking off the rig, or picking it up, so that the container has flipped through the lines. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stylin 1 #41 April 2, 2003 QuoteI am downloading the video now. I can see what you mean, it looks like the lines from one side are twisted together one direction below the line twists, and the other direction above the twists. Made it look like a step through. Stylin- A step through is where someone "steps through" their lines, usually while taking off the rig, or picking it up, so that the container has flipped through the lines. Hook Best to save them to disk, click right then Save Target, then play at 200 % resolution, dont forget the soiund!!! Sounds really wicked, but he sounds like hes having fun. On both, if you keep your eye on it, you can clearly see him first pull the cutaway, then the reserve, then his light brown reserve opens. Looked like the spin wasnt too bad but was about to pick up speed, so I can see where G-force can knock you out pretty quick. I wouldnt have messed with it. Also looks like he faced the ground immediately after the cutaway and opens reserve right away. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #42 April 2, 2003 QuoteI wouldnt have messed with it You'd be surprised what you would do in that situation. I've always said that, but almost died a bit over a week ago fucking with a similar malfunction.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stylin 1 #43 April 2, 2003 QuoteQuoteI wouldnt have messed with it You'd be surprised what you would do in that situation. I've always said that, but almost died a bit over a week ago fucking with a similar malfunction. Thats one reason I wouldnt mess with it. The other reason is Id already be pretty freaked out and ready for the reserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #44 April 2, 2003 My point is, you can talk all you want, but you never know how you're going to react, exactly, until you're confronted with the situation. Some times the brain just farts and you screw up. That's how people die in this sport.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #45 April 2, 2003 QuoteThink about it. The first time I went up, I found myself sittiing in a Cessna with people wearing skydiving equipment, and I was totally scared shitless. Guess Im just not as brave as some of the heros around here. Then when they popped the door open, I was so terrified I thought I was having a waking nightmare. Ok, sorry about the "kid" thing, from the way some people were talking I had assumed you were much younger. As it is though, you're still younger than I am (most people are). Anyway, as to being scared on your first jump, that's certainly not unique to you. Hell, some of the most fearless skydiver's I know today were more scared than you on your first jump. Take Jan Meyer for instance. Her STORY sounds a lot like yours, but she got over it and today, years later, she's a member of the Board of Directors for the USPA. Believe me, being scared is also a part of the sport. Fear is good. It keeps you on your toes. Just don't let it take over your life and you're fine.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stylin 1 #46 April 2, 2003 QuoteMy point is, you can talk all you want, but you never know how you're going to react, exactly, until you're confronted with the situation. Some times the brain just farts and you screw up. That's how people die in this sport. Youre talking about panicing. Thats right, you dont know whether or not youre going to panic until youre confronted, its how people die in a lot of sports. Panicing is a sure way to get killed. I paniced in that static line flip, it just went like "wham wham" Im seeing the ground flipping through wildly less than 3000 ft, so the first thing that triggers is "your about to get killed", I couldnt find the cutaway, the main immediately blows open and everything perfect. And Ill always be the first to say dont panic. They said at the DZ, "you were lucky", oh yea. I just think the best thing to do is just always be overly suspicious about what is going to happen, in other words, be a complete pessimist. Nothing is going to go right, but if it does, thats great. When I see the chute blow open, the first thing I think of is "okay, now whats wrong with it", it always kind of leaves you a little more mentally prepared. Next time I jump Ill probably go into a spin so I guess I better get prepared to do a cutaway. Just keep thinking that way until you get used to it, thats all you can do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stylin 1 #47 April 2, 2003 QuoteQuoteThink about it. The first time I went up, I found myself sittiing in a Cessna with people wearing skydiving equipment, and I was totally scared shitless. Guess Im just not as brave as some of the heros around here. Then when they popped the door open, I was so terrified I thought I was having a waking nightmare. Ok, sorry about the "kid" thing, from the way some people were talking I had assumed you were much younger. As it is though, you're still younger than I am (most people are). Anyway, as to being scared on your first jump, that's certainly not unique to you. Hell, some of the most fearless skydiver's I know today were more scared than you on your first jump. Take Jan Meyer for instance. Her STORY sounds a lot like yours, but she got over it and today, years later, she's a member of the Board of Directors for the USPA. Believe me, being scared is also a part of the sport. Fear is good. It keeps you on your toes. Just don't let it take over your life and you're fine. Yea well you dont want to panic either, thats that one thing that always gets you killed no matter what youre doing. When you panic, you cant think, and when you cant think, you cant do anything right. That guy in the video acted like he was liking it the whole time (turn on the sound), he must be used to going into spins. It doesnt look that bad from what I see from that, at first, but my question is after you cut away, dont you have to worry about a stable position before you want to pull the reserve? Looks to me like he just went one right after the other and wasnt concerned with where he would end up after cutting away. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eddytheeagle 0 #48 April 2, 2003 QuoteQuoteMy point is, you can talk all you want, but you never know how you're going to react, exactly, until you're confronted with the situation. Some times the brain just farts and you screw up. That's how people die in this sport. Youre talking about panicing. Thats right, you dont know whether or not youre going to panic until youre confronted, its how people die in a lot of sports. Panicing is a sure way to get killed. You're absolutely right that panicing can kill you, but Aggie didn't panic. He tried to clear a problem, and burnt away lots of altitude in the proces. What he's referring to (IMO), is that even though you might (and should) have plans for all kinds of emergency situations, one can react quite differently while faced with such an emergency (without panicing). And, on top of that, every mal is different... Also, I don't think the guy on the video was enjoying his canopy ride (though I haven't seen it, honestly). It's a very serious situation, and the yelling is probably a from of relief, having cleared the situation.Don't underestimate your ability to screw up! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #49 April 2, 2003 Thanks, that's what my response was going to say. I wasn't talking about panicing, I'm talking about brain farts, general fuck ups. That's not panic. Panic will kill you, fuck ups will kill you, keeping a clear head might save your ass. Honestly, I think you should take up bowling, with the attitudes I've seen you display here over the past couple days.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stylin 1 #50 April 2, 2003 QuoteThanks, that's what my response was going to say. I wasn't talking about panicing, I'm talking about brain farts, general fuck ups. That's not panic. Panic will kill you, fuck ups will kill you, keeping a clear head might save your ass. Honestly, I think you should take up bowling, with the attitudes I've seen you display here over the past couple days. And just what kind of an attitude do you call "I think you should take up bowling...". You better take a look at some of your own posts buddy, before you decide to start pointing fingers. Let me make a point here, and then Ill leave it at that. There are several people who want to keep making rude comments, ect, that might wonder why I dont "fight back". Im sure thats gone through everyones mind. So let me awnser it here. I could keep bickering back on this bulletin board, but that would be a waste of time, and I have a better way of doing things. Its called "discussing it" in person, and thats what I do. Think of it as an adrenaline rush that you dont have to pay for. You never know who youre going to run into someday. If youre going to run into me, I can either be real friendly, always willing to help out, or I can be your worst nightmare, somebody you hope to hell you never end up meeting. Its always up to the other person how Im going to be. Just a word of freindly advice, okay? Have a nice day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites