DJL 235 #26 August 27, 2003 HOOK IT. Oh dammit, this is safety and training. Um...I'm assuming your hypothetical is that the surprise is sub 100 ft^2 that I would substantially load it. I would straight in approach and get ready to slide it in. In all seriousness (if that's even a word), if someone where to mistakenly grab my rig then there's a chance that they would die. I occassionally have a Lightning in there and if it were opened at terminal it probably would not be survivable. People really need to look at their gear and if borrowing, find out exactly what's in there and make SURE."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #27 August 27, 2003 Quote I occassionally have a Lightning in there and if it were opened at terminal it probably would not be survivable. People have taken lightnings to terminal before... I know of a few people that jumped them as mains for years."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #28 August 27, 2003 A lot of lightnings used for CReW have mesh sliders, and those aren't the ones that you want to take terminal. I'm guessing that's what he means. As far as under a small canopy - I guess I would assume that the reserve isn't going to be any bigger (or much bigger) than the main, so I wouldn't want to complicate things by trying to cut away. Best to PLF. Depends on how small is small. If I "accidently" jumped hooknswoops 60, I might try an intentional water landing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #29 August 27, 2003 QuoteAs far as under a small canopy - I guess I would assume that the reserve isn't going to be any bigger (or much bigger) than the main, so I wouldn't want to complicate things by trying to cut away. Best to PLF. A PD113 or 106 is much safer for a guy with 40 jumps to land than a Velocity 96."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FreeDiver 0 #30 August 27, 2003 What's a lightning ? I once jumped a rented rig from my DZ that I didn't jump before. DZO told me it was 280 so happely I go and jump... ... when I looked up after deployment I was wondering if my previous canopies were as small as the 'completely yellow' one above me right now... and it flew kind of strange too... (slow though) I had a soft landing. Upon asking afterwards he said he had mistakenly given me a 300sq ft now either it WAS smaller and our DZO is lying or my first time jumping a completely yellow canopy led me to believe the canopy was smaller since motifs (like coloured cells) make things look larger Eitherway: I would be interested to see the size of various canopies because a newbie like myself has no clue... forgive me as I am still learning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,070 #31 August 27, 2003 >If you do find yourself under a canopy you realize is way smaller >than your used to, do you land it, or cut away? I'm not sure a jumper is significantly better off under a PD113 than under a Crossfire 109 if all he has ever jumped are 150+ sq ft canopies. Personally I'd land anything larger than about 70 sq ft if it was a 'normal' jump (i.e. a bit of wind, normal landing area, within 2000 feet of sea level.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DJL 235 #32 August 27, 2003 Riddler got it right. Mesh slider, tail pocket, free packed open nose. It goes "whammo." I thought about that this weekend because my friend's L143 was in there (same configuration) and I told a new jumper that I would lend him my spare canopy for a while. Was hoping he wouldn't grab the rig and jump it before I got there. peace,"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites relyon 0 #33 August 27, 2003 QuoteI'm not sure a jumper is significantly better off under a PD113 than under a Crossfire 109 if all he has ever jumped are 150+ sq ft canopies. These two have very different planforms and I'd expect correspondingly different turn and flare characteristics. My guess is that the 113 will be more docile. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Fast 0 #34 August 27, 2003 I'll preface this with the fact that im a newbie to jumping, i have 20 jumps, but I'm not stupid, and have read a lot on this forum and other places. Last weekend one of the students jumping at my DZ on jump #1 or 2 was comming into the landing area, and apparently not listening to radio because at 150 feet he decided he was facing the wrong way into the wind (which he wasn't) and hooks a 180, now... he got supper ass lucky that he didn't kill himself and only got scraped up/bruised etc. The fact that he was on a big manta sure made his life a whole lot longer/less painfull. I don't see how telling new jumpers that have almost no skill level at all that low turns kill, doesn't make sense. When I had only 1 jump, I didn't know what a flat turn, braked turn, etc was. To me a turn was pull the toggle down. Now I understand the more finer points of canopy control, how the canopy that I have been using reacts to riser input, flares, flat turns, spirals, etc. So to me it seems that for someone totaly new a nice low turn would kill, once you develop some skill doing the right turns etc at the right altitude then makes sense. As for the topic of the thread, me as a really low time jumper would make sure as shit I wasn't jumping the wrong thing, but if for some reason (act of god, whatever) I ended up under a tiny canopy, I don't think I would chop it and risk the mal over taking a long straight in approach to a large landing area, being ready to PLF and taking some practice manuvers when I'm up high. Maybe this isn't the right course of action, but I think its hard to weigh the risk of the two. If somone is at least an OK canopy pilot then a cautious approach etc would seem like the better idea even if its a bit smaller of a canopy than the reserve, if the person can't fly worth a damn, then they need all the help they get. *Again, just my newbie opinion*~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,070 #35 August 27, 2003 >These two have very different planforms and I'd expect > correspondingly different turn and flare characteristics. My guess is > that the 113 will be more docile. I agree, but to someone who has never jumped anything that's near that small, I don't think it's a significant difference. There is an additional danger in chopping (i.e. chance of a reserve mal, riser hangup, line twist on the reserve, loss of altitude) and I think that outweighs the differences between the two canopies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Unutsch 0 #36 August 27, 2003 QuoteYes, but there's always boogies etc. to think about. i see your point, but we maintain order in the pack even during boogies or any other mass event (well, most of the time)... and all of the low time jumers get a gear check prior to going to the plane... and all this put together, takes the risk of such an incident to minimum... Check out the site of the Fallen Angels FreeflY Organisation: http://www.padliangeli.org Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,465 #37 August 27, 2003 Quotewho is the person who did the gear check? why didn't that person question why the guy had a tiny rig on? In the US, unlike Great Brittain, there is no mandatory gear check prior to boarding the plane. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rdutch 0 #38 August 27, 2003 Quotewho is the person who did the gear check? why didn't that person question why the guy had a tiny rig on? The person who did, or should I say Did a bad job of a gear check was the Jumper. As he wasnt a student he was responsable for what he was jumping. Instructors at a busy Dz cant watch out for everyone, all the time. The jumper should have asked someone to help him if he had any questions, it was 100% the person that jumped the rig's fault. He was taught to do a gear check, and for some reason he chose not to, or forgot. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bmcd308 0 #39 August 27, 2003 Well, Ron, I don't think I am going to take you up on your challenge, because I am afraid I would only be able to give you an impression of whichever one I jumped first. You might well be correct that the PD113 is a whole lot slower and easier to land than the Velocity 103, but I am not confident of a good result under either. My decision tree is a little different from yours - I would be choosing between a fully functional but probably unlandable (for me) canopy on the one hand and a reserve that might malfunction and would probably still be unlandable (for me) on the other hand. Either canopy would be so much smaller and different from anything else I had flown before that I think both would be well outside the envelope of my ability. It's a little like choosing between having a stick of dynamite go off up your ass and quarter pound of C-4 go off up your ass. The C-4 is a much bigger boom, but it doesn't make much difference to the post-explosion condition of your ass. Brent ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #40 August 27, 2003 QuoteIt's a little like choosing between having a stick of dynamite go off up your ass and quarter pound of C-4 go off up your ass. The C-4 is a much bigger boom, but it doesn't make much difference to the post-explosion condition of your ass. That put a smile on my face Performance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DJL 235 #41 August 27, 2003 Quote Quote ------------------------------------------------------------ It's a little like choosing between having a stick of dynamite go off up your ass and quarter pound of C-4 go off up your ass. The C-4 is a much bigger boom, but it doesn't make much difference to the post-explosion condition of your ass. ------------------------------------------------------------ That put a smile on my face . Yes, finally someone speaking in terms that I can understand."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiverRick 0 #42 August 28, 2003 Do you actually use this line in a FJC? In my class I teach- Landing Priorities: 1) Avoid obstacles 2) No low turns 3) Land into the wind Low turns: No turns greater than 180 degrees under 500' No turns greater than 90 degrees under 200' never pull low......unless you are Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #29 August 27, 2003 QuoteAs far as under a small canopy - I guess I would assume that the reserve isn't going to be any bigger (or much bigger) than the main, so I wouldn't want to complicate things by trying to cut away. Best to PLF. A PD113 or 106 is much safer for a guy with 40 jumps to land than a Velocity 96."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FreeDiver 0 #30 August 27, 2003 What's a lightning ? I once jumped a rented rig from my DZ that I didn't jump before. DZO told me it was 280 so happely I go and jump... ... when I looked up after deployment I was wondering if my previous canopies were as small as the 'completely yellow' one above me right now... and it flew kind of strange too... (slow though) I had a soft landing. Upon asking afterwards he said he had mistakenly given me a 300sq ft now either it WAS smaller and our DZO is lying or my first time jumping a completely yellow canopy led me to believe the canopy was smaller since motifs (like coloured cells) make things look larger Eitherway: I would be interested to see the size of various canopies because a newbie like myself has no clue... forgive me as I am still learning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #31 August 27, 2003 >If you do find yourself under a canopy you realize is way smaller >than your used to, do you land it, or cut away? I'm not sure a jumper is significantly better off under a PD113 than under a Crossfire 109 if all he has ever jumped are 150+ sq ft canopies. Personally I'd land anything larger than about 70 sq ft if it was a 'normal' jump (i.e. a bit of wind, normal landing area, within 2000 feet of sea level.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #32 August 27, 2003 Riddler got it right. Mesh slider, tail pocket, free packed open nose. It goes "whammo." I thought about that this weekend because my friend's L143 was in there (same configuration) and I told a new jumper that I would lend him my spare canopy for a while. Was hoping he wouldn't grab the rig and jump it before I got there. peace,"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #33 August 27, 2003 QuoteI'm not sure a jumper is significantly better off under a PD113 than under a Crossfire 109 if all he has ever jumped are 150+ sq ft canopies. These two have very different planforms and I'd expect correspondingly different turn and flare characteristics. My guess is that the 113 will be more docile. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #34 August 27, 2003 I'll preface this with the fact that im a newbie to jumping, i have 20 jumps, but I'm not stupid, and have read a lot on this forum and other places. Last weekend one of the students jumping at my DZ on jump #1 or 2 was comming into the landing area, and apparently not listening to radio because at 150 feet he decided he was facing the wrong way into the wind (which he wasn't) and hooks a 180, now... he got supper ass lucky that he didn't kill himself and only got scraped up/bruised etc. The fact that he was on a big manta sure made his life a whole lot longer/less painfull. I don't see how telling new jumpers that have almost no skill level at all that low turns kill, doesn't make sense. When I had only 1 jump, I didn't know what a flat turn, braked turn, etc was. To me a turn was pull the toggle down. Now I understand the more finer points of canopy control, how the canopy that I have been using reacts to riser input, flares, flat turns, spirals, etc. So to me it seems that for someone totaly new a nice low turn would kill, once you develop some skill doing the right turns etc at the right altitude then makes sense. As for the topic of the thread, me as a really low time jumper would make sure as shit I wasn't jumping the wrong thing, but if for some reason (act of god, whatever) I ended up under a tiny canopy, I don't think I would chop it and risk the mal over taking a long straight in approach to a large landing area, being ready to PLF and taking some practice manuvers when I'm up high. Maybe this isn't the right course of action, but I think its hard to weigh the risk of the two. If somone is at least an OK canopy pilot then a cautious approach etc would seem like the better idea even if its a bit smaller of a canopy than the reserve, if the person can't fly worth a damn, then they need all the help they get. *Again, just my newbie opinion*~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #35 August 27, 2003 >These two have very different planforms and I'd expect > correspondingly different turn and flare characteristics. My guess is > that the 113 will be more docile. I agree, but to someone who has never jumped anything that's near that small, I don't think it's a significant difference. There is an additional danger in chopping (i.e. chance of a reserve mal, riser hangup, line twist on the reserve, loss of altitude) and I think that outweighs the differences between the two canopies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unutsch 0 #36 August 27, 2003 QuoteYes, but there's always boogies etc. to think about. i see your point, but we maintain order in the pack even during boogies or any other mass event (well, most of the time)... and all of the low time jumers get a gear check prior to going to the plane... and all this put together, takes the risk of such an incident to minimum... Check out the site of the Fallen Angels FreeflY Organisation: http://www.padliangeli.org Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #37 August 27, 2003 Quotewho is the person who did the gear check? why didn't that person question why the guy had a tiny rig on? In the US, unlike Great Brittain, there is no mandatory gear check prior to boarding the plane. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #38 August 27, 2003 Quotewho is the person who did the gear check? why didn't that person question why the guy had a tiny rig on? The person who did, or should I say Did a bad job of a gear check was the Jumper. As he wasnt a student he was responsable for what he was jumping. Instructors at a busy Dz cant watch out for everyone, all the time. The jumper should have asked someone to help him if he had any questions, it was 100% the person that jumped the rig's fault. He was taught to do a gear check, and for some reason he chose not to, or forgot. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #39 August 27, 2003 Well, Ron, I don't think I am going to take you up on your challenge, because I am afraid I would only be able to give you an impression of whichever one I jumped first. You might well be correct that the PD113 is a whole lot slower and easier to land than the Velocity 103, but I am not confident of a good result under either. My decision tree is a little different from yours - I would be choosing between a fully functional but probably unlandable (for me) canopy on the one hand and a reserve that might malfunction and would probably still be unlandable (for me) on the other hand. Either canopy would be so much smaller and different from anything else I had flown before that I think both would be well outside the envelope of my ability. It's a little like choosing between having a stick of dynamite go off up your ass and quarter pound of C-4 go off up your ass. The C-4 is a much bigger boom, but it doesn't make much difference to the post-explosion condition of your ass. Brent ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #40 August 27, 2003 QuoteIt's a little like choosing between having a stick of dynamite go off up your ass and quarter pound of C-4 go off up your ass. The C-4 is a much bigger boom, but it doesn't make much difference to the post-explosion condition of your ass. That put a smile on my face Performance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #41 August 27, 2003 Quote Quote ------------------------------------------------------------ It's a little like choosing between having a stick of dynamite go off up your ass and quarter pound of C-4 go off up your ass. The C-4 is a much bigger boom, but it doesn't make much difference to the post-explosion condition of your ass. ------------------------------------------------------------ That put a smile on my face . Yes, finally someone speaking in terms that I can understand."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiverRick 0 #42 August 28, 2003 Do you actually use this line in a FJC? In my class I teach- Landing Priorities: 1) Avoid obstacles 2) No low turns 3) Land into the wind Low turns: No turns greater than 180 degrees under 500' No turns greater than 90 degrees under 200' never pull low......unless you are Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #43 August 28, 2003 I'd make wings level the number 1 priority. In fact that's whats taught on our first jump 1) Wings Level 2) Avoid obstacles 3) Land into the wind Not too long ago we had a jumper avoid an obstacle and hook himself into the ground (low time jumper new from another dz) because he thought it would be better to hook in than hit the obstacle. I really wish he hadn't done that but at least he's alive to talk about it. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkySlut 0 #44 August 28, 2003 Here is my opinion...xpost from your incidents forum post... QuoteInteresting little story... I had about 120 jumps and I was on the first load of the season in New England. I had borrowed a rig while mine was being delivered. It was something that I was used to jump so no major thing there. Well, we got out and had a terribly long spot (yeah, I know check your spot, but, hey it was the first load of the season and the green light was on) and we were going to land off. Anyways, I pitched out and the canopy was hooked up backwards!!! I thought about chopping it...I had NEVER flown a canopy backwards before...but I stuck with it and landed it in a small field, into the wind and almost stood it up. Same thing, just because it isnt something that you havent seen before doesnt mean that you chop it. Point being: If you arent comfortable landing what you have over your head...get rid of it. Can you steer it? Can you land it? No? Well, then get rid of it!!! If the dude didnt feel comfortable landing it than he should have gotten rid of it. Its your decision...I could steer my canopy and I felt that I could land it safely. That was my decision and that was his...I dont believe that there should be any question about that. When I got back to the DZ, I got a varied opinion from all types of jump numbers: it was either "good job" or "I would have chopped it" or "you got more balls than I do". These statements come from 100 jumps to about 6000 jumps from what I can remember. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #45 August 28, 2003 QuoteWell, Ron, I don't think I am going to take you up on your challenge, because I am afraid I would only be able to give you an impression of whichever one I jumped first. You might well be correct that the PD113 is a whole lot slower and easier to land than the Velocity 103, but I am not confident of a good result under either. Yes, but you have a much better chance of landing the PD113. Trust me on that. And if you screw up you will have a much greater chance of less injury with the PD113R. I have jumped both, and I know which is safer to land."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #46 August 28, 2003 QuoteQuoteWell, Ron, I don't think I am going to take you up on your challenge, because I am afraid I would only be able to give you an impression of whichever one I jumped first. You might well be correct that the PD113 is a whole lot slower and easier to land than the Velocity 103, but I am not confident of a good result under either. Yes, but you have a much better chance of landing the PD113. Trust me on that. And if you screw up you will have a much greater chance of less injury with the PD113R. I have jumped both, and I know which is safer to land. In the scenario presented, we wouldn't know that the reserve was a PD113. It would be just as much a mystery as the main. I'm not sure I could look up a a strange main and know (a) what type it was, (b) what size it was (other than "Jeez - that's bloody small"), and (c) know what to expect in the way of a reserve if I cut away the main.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #47 August 28, 2003 I figure most people, even newbies, can land pretty much any canopy straight in, at least 8 times out of 10. Probably 9 times out of 10. They might break something, but if they set it up striaght in, don't do any stupid low turns, and accept that they're in a crappy situation, they'll live. There's a good chance they'll walk away from it, too. Cutting away and going for a reserve of unknown size - and more importantly, of unknown quality adds nothing. Reserves are F111, which don't age well. I'd rather be under highly loaded ZP then highly loaded F111. I would acknowledge that I'm probably gonna get hurt, slap myself for being a dumbass, fly straight in and try to slide off the speed. I'm a fatass, I'm loading a 150 at over 1.6. Putting me under Dereks 69 would load it at over 3.5. Even though I think I'm a half decent canopy pilot, I am wise enough to know that jumping a truely small pocket-rocket will end badly. If I was dumb enough to pick one up by accident, I'd fly the main straight in and brace for impact. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #48 August 28, 2003 QuoteI'm a fatass, I'm loading a 150 at over 1.6. Putting me under Dereks 69 would load it at over 3.5. Even though I think I'm a half decent canopy pilot, I am wise enough to know that jumping a truely small pocket-rocket will end badly. If I was dumb enough to pick one up by accident, I'd fly the main straight in and brace for impact. Not that it matters, but Derek actually flies a 60. But I can't see how I would confuse putting on Derek's pocket rocket teenie-weenie rig compared to my big ass rig. But I guess someone confused their rigs. If I know both my main and my reserve are small, I'd much rather land a ZP main with a great horizontal glide than a highly loaded reserve. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #49 August 28, 2003 I'm amazed no one has said "keep the main and deploy the reserve". Not that I think it's the best idea, but the school of thought of "the more over your head the better" comes to mind. If you had sufficient altitude you could cut the main away if necessary. I saw a guy bring in a side by side Saturday, flare the main (it was the dominant canopy), and stand it up.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #50 August 28, 2003 QuoteCutting away and going for a reserve of unknown size - and more importantly, of unknown quality adds nothing. Reserves are F111, which don't age well. I'd rather be under highly loaded ZP then highly loaded F111. Reserves aren't of unknown size and quality. They're generally sized similarly to the main and usually a little larger. The average reserve is going to be a low aspect 7-cell or something similarly docile. They're TSO'd, inspected every 120 days, and packed with much greater care than the average main. That's worth considerably more than nothing to me. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
