Why?

[Grumpy 9]

Skylark, can you please explain to me why you think I should be compelled to have an AAD?
There are many people giving reasons why they shouldn't have to have one but I don't see any well considered argument as to why I should have one.
I'm thinking maybe you could tell me some situations when an AAD would benefit me and how often these occur in relation to the number of jumps made each year. (lets exclude student gear which I think should be equipped with AADs)

PS Where did you get the idea that people who don't use AADs think they're macho?

[mikeat10500 12]

AAD's are very useful for those hot four ways going
for that extra point at 1100' making deep eye contact. But I if your using square reserve I recommend
hooking it up backwards w/ normal brake settings so
they fly away from each other opening!

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[Ruffles 0]

Newbie here, not a lot of experience, but I'm not too dumb & I can use logic. If someone's AAD goes off because they lost altitude awareness, should they be in this sport? Perhaps not.

If someone has a cypress fire because they don't execute emergency procedures in a proper timely fashion, should they continue skydiving?
Perhaps not, this "sport is not for them".

Should discovering that skydiving is not for you cost you your life?
Surely not.

Yes, perhaps people whose Cypres fire for some other reason than they were knocked unconcious, are big, fat, not-as-cool-as-you losers that you can banish to Siberia for fear they will contaminate our gene pool.
But they have a right to keep on living their regular non-skydiving life and not end up as a blood stain on a runway because they are sub-optimal skydivers. Your mistakes shouldn't cost you your life.

I'm way cool with individual decisions and personal responsibility (ie, if you don't wanna jump one, thats OK with me), but speaking from a newly-off-student-status perspective, all the grand-standing that goes on in these forums leads the newbie (like me at one point) to think that Cypres were only for incompetent or unsafe skydivers. Is this the message you guys want to pass on the the up-n-comers?



..

[Kris 0]

Quote

Whats the down side to the cypress other than making you feel more like a man to not wear one?

I can think of at least one instance where I would not want my Cypres turned on. On a CRW dive. I might also turn it off if I am doing a really low hop & pop.

There are also some people who do not want that little black box on their back for fear of a misfire. It has happened before. The Cypres is just a device, made by man. It is not infallible and it is not error-proof.

For some, that is more than reason enough to not have one on their rig.

It is, after all, just a backup to your own brain.

Kris

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[lazerq3 0]

Quote

If someone's AAD goes off because they lost altitude awareness, should they be in this sport? Most likely not

Be cautious when making this statement....I myself along with I'm sure many others have at one time lost altitude awareness and went O shit ...better pull.... does it mean I shouldnt be in the sport ...NO it means I better pull my head out of my ass and pay better attention...LESSON LEARNED!!! No matter how RIGHT you do everything, things can go wrong ...doesnt mean you should quit..just get more training and learn form the mistakes....now if that mistake costs you your life... then thats the ultimate risk we take.,... In the words of Lane Frost.."DOnt be afraid to go after who you want to be and what you want to do...but also dont be afraid to pay the price!!"

jason

Freedom of speech includes volume

[Ruffles 0]

Lazer, I totally agree. I was trying to appease the more hard liners. I can think of few reason why I would ever think that someone should stop skydiving all together. I myself am the poster-child of fuck ups and I'm not gonna quit.
My point is simply that when you do make those mistakes, you should not have to die from them if there is another option (Cypress for example). Don't think that I am trying to impress upon you that screwing up and doing a low pull means you should quit the sport, but alot of the people I'm trying to reach believe just that, and thats why I wrote it. I will make an edit.

[lazerq3 0]

.

Quote

I will make an edit

Know reason to edit ..I can see where your coming from..and its all good .

jason.

Freedom of speech includes volume

[freeflyguy 0]

Fine, maybe only 3 saved unconscious skydivers in 12 years.

Anna is one, who are the other two? If it wasn't for a cypress. She would be very dead. I am very glad she is not, because she is cool, and without it, I wouldn't have met her.

What about the 3 dead skydivers at the South pole? The made a very nice formation correct crater in the snow. Should have been a four way crater, but the 4th was dumb enough to wear an AAD.

Now who is the 1 person saved, that I don't know about?

I think you are a bit off on your stats. Find the real number before you post as fact.

How many have been irrefutabley killed be a cypress? And I don't mean the other AADs.


Sure CReW or some stuff, don't wear it, but in general.

We had dual cypress fires the other day. I suppose I could have posted it in the incident forum, but didn't. For reasons you might be able to figure out, if you know my DZ

A mother went after her low jump number son who lost alt aware. They both fired. She wouldn't have pulled, it was her son. Flame if you like, but that is the choice she made.

If you think about it. It fires at 800 feet. That is about 5 seconds from impact. It takes 3 to open, you are saddled in a reserve at 450, at best. That means, your are no more than 2 or 3 seconds from dead, when it fires.

I don't get involved in cypress debates, usually, but get clue.

----------------------------
bzzzz

[MC208B 0]

hasn't this topic been around here a few humdred times????

[Kris 0]

Actually, PhreeZone is correct about the low number, but not the exact number, of unconscious skydivers saved vs those who otherwise screwed up.

Out of 239 documented saves, only 8 of those were people who were unconscious at the time.

The information is here: Documented CYPRES Saves

Kris

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[FallinWoman 1]

Quote

I'm way cool with individual decisions and personal responsibility (ie, if you don't wanna jump one, thats OK with me), but speaking from a newly-off-student-status perspective, all the grand-standing that goes on in these forums leads the newbie (like me at one point) to think that Cypres were only for incompetent or unsafe skydivers. Is this the message you guys want to pass on the the up-n-comers?

The message that I want to sent to up and coming skydivers is that an AAD is not a tool to be relied on. Even if you have a perfectly packed main, a perfectly packed reserve, the newest and greatest harness/container, and a turned on, correctly calibrated AAD, YOU CAN STILL DIE.

I also believe that spending my money staying current will help me save my own life when I choose to jump out of an airplane.

By the way...I have my Cypres on for every jump. And I check it everytime I gear up.

BUT...I don't rely on it.

~Anne

I'm a Doll!!!!

[skymedic 0]

Quote

Rather depressing, 'I'm too tough' attitudes (Skymedic, you won't be able to pull your own handles if you're knocked unconcious after a freefall collision). Maybe someone can post the total number of lives saved by the use of AAD's. Or better still, the number of needless deaths caused by jumpers who thought they were 'too cool' to wear them.

where do you see a "I'm too tough" attitude in my post? my problem is not in people wearing AAD's...I'd love to have one...and will as soon as I get the money together. MY point along with Fallinwoman's is that AAD's are not a ecurity blanket. just because you have one, does NOT mean it will work or work properly. there are absolutely no garuntees in skydiving...I am afraid to jump with someone who will not jump without a cypres. I dont mind if they jump them...that's great...but to say that you'd NEVER jump with out one is nuts, in my opinion.

by the way...1200 bucks on a new cypres would probably be better spent on training, jumps, currency....those are the things that stand a better chance of saving my fat ass than a cypres ever will. AAD's tend to be for people who go low...rarely do they have a "true" save. and they do fail. just imagine a 4 way team doing big time over-under's and a cypres goes off in someone's face....that's scary..will it happen? probably not....will I get knocked out in freefall? probably not...as long as I keep my eye's open...and am aware WHO i jump with...BUT..you are entitled to your opinion. I dont think AAD regulation will make any of us safer...I think outlawing hook turns would save FAR more skydivers than an AAD ever will....or how about a canopy regulation of some type.....to prevent downsizing to fast....or how about no freeflying from people with less than 100 jumps....or...or...or...you can go on and on...there is a far greater need for canopy training than AAD use....

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

Newbie here, not a lot of experience, but I'm not too dumb & I can use logic. If someone's AAD goes off because they lost altitude awareness, should they be in this sport? Perhaps not.

Well, you've just told Glen Bangs - S&TA, Instructor Evaluator, and USPA board member he should not be in the sport.

I think you would be surprised at how often cypreses go off for very experienced, and very knowledgable skydivers.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[diverdriver 5]

I believe we've done more with peer pressure than we could with a law. I can count the number of friends jumping without a Cypres on two hands. The numbers always using seatbelts in jump planes is near 100% (there's the occasional goofball). And the number of people wearing hardshell helmets is near 100% where I jump. So, I think we've done fairly well here at my home DZ.

Chris Schindler

[mikeat10500 12]

Excellent post...I couldn't agree more.
I would never tell someone skydiving is not for them. The one true advancement made in this sport is to make it accessible to the general public.
When you look at 30 first jump students through
bloodshot eyes at 7:30 am, you don't always see
30 jet fighter pilot types"with the right stuff".
It's the job of the instructor to turn each and every one of them into lean, mean, skydiving machines.
If someone truly wants to do this stuff I can't see
it ever being impossible.


I myself along with I'm sure many others have at one time lost altitude awareness and went O shit ...better pull.... does it mean I shouldnt be in the sport ...NO it means I better pull my head out of my ass and pay better attention...LESSON LEARNED!!! No matter how RIGHT you do everything, things can go wrong ...doesnt mean you should quit..just get more training and learn form the mistakes....now if that mistake costs you your life... then thats the ultimate risk we take.,... In the words of Lane Frost.."DOnt be afraid to go after who you want to be and what you want to do...but also dont be afraid to pay the price!!"

jason

[PhillyKev 0]

Why isn't there a law against skydiving? That would really reduce the number of fatalities.

Law should be used to protect society from avoidable and unnecessary risks. Not to protect individuals from their personal choices.

[mikeat10500 12]

>>...I think outlawing hook turns would save FAR more skydivers than an AAD ever will....or how about a canopy regulation of some type.....

Some of us are in the sport to get away from rules and regulations. Jumpers always say "Why do the call it FREEfall...it's not free!!! It's called free fall because you are free of the A/C,free from the life you lead on the planet below, free to fly your
body through the sky, free to do what you damn
well please.

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[Genie 0]

Quote

Quote

Newbie here, not a lot of experience, but I'm not too dumb & I can use logic. If someone's AAD goes off because they lost altitude awareness, should they be in this sport? Perhaps not.

Quote

Well, you've just told Glen Bangs - S&TA, Instructor Evaluator, and USPA board member he should not be in the sport.

Just FYI in our club we had a kinda unwritten rule - if your cypress fires because you have lost alti awareness then you were grounded. The idea was you'd already had your chance, ie you were now a dead man walking. I dont know anyone in our club who has ever had a cypress fire for going low. (we are a v small club by US standards tho)
Our CCI did fire one by spiralling down on a student rig Which by the way in one of the reasons to NOT have one. Cypres fires at 750 feet +/- 250 ft i think. If you go low and realise it and dump your main which is generally the automatic reaction then you can be in two canopy out situation. And in that case all bets are off - check out the research done at one stage on what should be done in a two out situation - basically they came to the conclusion that theres no one right rule, sometimes cutting away your main works, sometimes it fouls your risers and collapses the reserve. Sometime holding on to both and flying the bigger works ok, sometimes it downplanes at 100 ft.

On another note a friend of mine recently hit with a spining malfunction. Hes a V lucky guy as he went throuh trees and landed on marshy ground. Fractured pelvis, 8 broken ribs, broken nose, dislocated shoulder. In the immediate aftermath a number of people started saying oh if only he had an aad he would have been ok. He DID have an aad, and it was on - either he wasnt descending rapidly enough to fire it or it didnt work. Sometimes they dont. And people rely on them. Another member of the club has been jumping about 15 years, anout 10 of them without a Cypres. It had to go for its 4 year check and he didnt jump. That to me is wrong.

Also IIRC there was a fatality in Deland one christmas a couple of years ago, a girl who was jumping a demo rig, cut away at 3,500 and basically sat there waiting for something to happen. She didnt pull her reserve handle. Theories as to why she didnt pull included the fact that she normally jumped with an AAD and might have been waiting for it - i guess we will never know. I dont *think* suicide was was an obvious conclusion in this case ie no hints that she was depressed or in trouble but i could be wrong.

Quote

I think you would be surprised at how often cypreses go off for very experienced, and very knowledgable skydivers.

I look on an AAD as an airbag in a car - if everything is going to hell it just might save your life - but its your fault that everything went to hell in general.
I must admit i have issues when people die and everyone asks why they didnt have an AAD - i think a much more pertinent question is why didnt they pull their handles?
If im not confident i can pull my on handles i shouldnt be in the air - personal opinion. And if im in the air and dont pull my handles then i expect to die. afterall skydiving does expect you to take responsibility for yourself.

_Am

Wow, i really got long on this didnt i? Sorry !
Genie

[wmw999 2,439]

Something to think about on AAD fires is that the AAD prevents the really low opening, by firing first.

That's a good thing, because opening at 1000 is just about always better than opening at 500. But (I'm told) there's a huge difference in the kind of ground rush you get starting about 800-900 feet.

So not all of those people would be dead. But way too many would.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[RevJim 0]

Quote

A new seat-belt or a new helmet doesn't cost $1200

Not to mention the fact that the seatbelt is included in the purchase price of the car, and will last as long as you own the car, not 12 years from the D.O.M.

It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1

[Iflyme 0]

Quote

I am against the Gov requiring seat belts and helmets
Its my business if dont use these things and no one elses. By not wearing them I ony harm myself, therefore its my business and no one elses. I dont need the Gov to wipe my ass for me.

I fully support seatbelt and helmet laws. These laws are in place to protect people who aren't smart enough to protect themselves. We also have bicycle helmet laws. A few years ago a teenage girl fell off her bike here at very low speed, hit her unprotected head on a curb, and died. A helmet would have saved her life.

[beowulf 1]

I am against the Gov requiring seat belts and helmets
Its my business if dont use these things and no one elses. By not wearing them I ony harm myself, therefore its my business and no one elses. I dont need the Gov to wipe my ass for me.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I fully support seatbelt and helmet laws. These laws are in place to protect people who aren't smart enough to protect themselves. We also have bicycle helmet laws. A few years ago a teenage girl fell off her bike here at very low speed, hit her unprotected head on a curb, and died. A helmet would have saved her life.





Ok let me amend my first statement. I am against the Gov. forcing people of legal age, who can legaly sign documents, to use seatbelts or helmets or any other safety devices. If I dont feel the need to use them, then thats my problem. Under age kids should use these devices since they are too young to make these decisions.
That is what I was trying to say the first time.

[riggerrob 643]

Quote

I believe we've done more with peer pressure than we could with a law. I can count the number of friends jumping without a Cypres on two hands. The numbers always using seatbelts in jump planes is near 100% (there's the occasional goofball). And the number of people wearing hardshell helmets is near 100% where I jump. So, I think we've done fairly well here at my home DZ.

Chris Schindler

AADs have been mandatory for students in Canada for about 20 years now. One of my stupid IAD students would be dead now if it weren't for Francis Xavier Chevrier.
At one point, Snohomish tried to make AADs mandatory, but as soon as a lawyer explained the implications, Jamie Woodward backed down. The gist of the lawyer's explanation was that the first time a skydiver died because of a Cypres miss-fire/malfunction/entanglement, etc. the courts would sue the pants off the DZO.
This is the same logic that forced Quebec DZOs from making ADs mandatory.
This is the same logic that prevents my boss from checking reserve data cards.
Any time the DZO sets a standard, he increases his own liability.
This is a clear case of lawyers scaring DZOs into making unsafe decisions.
Isn' t the North American legal system wonderful?
As for my personal reasons for not having an AAD in all my rigs ... I had been jumping for 14 years and made more than 1,000 jumps before Cypri were invented. Since 1993 I have only jumped tandem with Cypres. All my IAD and PFF students wear FXCs. I have a Cypres in one of my personal rigs, but that is only because my boss loaned it to me because he wants his instrucotrs to lead by example. My second solo rig does not have a Cypres because A; it is so old that I cannot retrofit a Cypres to it and B; I am too cheap to buy a two-pin Cypres.
Hum. Maybe I should go to work and finish updating that Vector I that is gathering dust in the corner.

[Ruffles 0]

Andy - listen to what I mean, not what I say.

"I can think of few reason why I would ever think that someone should stop skydiving all together. I myself am the poster-child of fuck ups and I'm not gonna quit.
"Don't think that I am trying to impress upon you that screwing up and doing a low pull means you should quit the sport"

i'm out.



..

[rendezvous 0]

Ok ! let's brain storm this from the purpose of having some fun. So let's see, the FAA requires you to wear a parachute if you intend to jump. No where does it say that you are required to open it before a certain altitude is reached or you are considered illegal. The BSR lays down safety requirements as a suggestion but if you choose not to open the chute until you are at 500 ft you are not going to be breaking any laws. You might upset a lot of people and never be allowed to jump in the area but you won't have been illegal. From that point of view if you are forced to use an ADD then you are in essence being forced to be open at 750 ft, clearly an infringement on your right to determine your opening altitude. To portect that right you'll have to keep the AAD off, which is as good as not having one. So the case now is would you like the FAA to set a limit to the legal opening altitude and if you aren't open by then, are you willing to be legally liable for it. Talking of seat belts, let's look at another aspect of driving, speed limit. If the state requires you to follow speed limits why does it not make it a requirement by law to have a device that will not let you exceed the maximum speed limit posted or atleast not allow a vehicle to exceed a certain maximum speed determined to be the max. safest fastest speed which I'm sure will be way less than what a lot of people choose to cruise at on highways these days. Just some food for thought ...