dreamsville 0 #26 March 20, 2003 Listen to the others. You'll get more performance for the same input in some cases with the Stiletto, but you may not have even tested the limits of what you are jumping now. I switched to a Stiletto 135 from a Sabre 170 after 750 jumps, and am not swoop-experienced after 1300+. Fly it cautiously when trying something new and try it up high. Get coaching if you want to be more aggressive. |I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane. Harry, FB #4143 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #27 March 20, 2003 I never thought of it that way - but it is true, why bother going with the Porsche if you aren't going to drive it to its limits? For looks?? When I go back to the midwest and jump I jump my buddy's Stilletto so I don't have to lug my rig from Denver (its a 135). I jump a Sabre in Denver and still have just as much fun with it (granted there is a 5000 foot altitude difference). -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamsville 0 #28 March 20, 2003 Even if you don't fly it to its limits, the landing glide and turn characteristics of my Stiletto are fun. You know it can do a bit more than some other canopies, even if you don't push it. On the Porsche, it's a bit the same way. The used one I had was fun up to 125, but it was scary to even go that high. Over Christmas my buddy in Florida lent me his Carrera for a week and a half. Boy was it fun driving to Sebastian and Pahokee in that! I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane. Harry, FB #4143 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #29 March 20, 2003 QuoteIf you're not pushing the canopy to it's limits, why change? Have that extra safety margin for when the effluence hits the ventilator. Is a Sabre150 pushed to its limits safer than a Stiletto150 flown well within its limits? What is the extra safety margin of a Sabre150 over a Stiletto150?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #30 March 20, 2003 If he's not pushing the sabre, why does he need the extra performance of the stiletto?____________________ Say no to subliminal messages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #31 March 20, 2003 Quote If he's not pushing the sabre, why does he need the extra performance of the stiletto? A Geo Metra will exceed the speed limit comfortably. Do you drive one? I don't. My car will do 100mph all day and 120mph (electronically limited) if I push the limits, but I usually stay below 80. So why do I have a more capable car - because it is altogether nicer in the way it rides and handles. Do I have it for the cool factor? Hardly, it's a wagon!I jump a Stiletto 150 but I don't hook it and I don't push its limits. Why a Stiletto instead of a Sabre? Because it's a nicer flying and nicer opening canopy, lighter control pressures, nicer flare - rather like comparing a car to a truck.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
betzilla 56 #32 March 20, 2003 QuoteIs a Sabre150 pushed to its limits safer than a Stiletto150 flown well within its limits? What is the extra safety margin of a Sabre150 over a Stiletto150? Well said, John. There are lots of people who like a stiletto better for the way it handles up high. And frankly, it has a more responsive flare, and smaller control range, which generally can allow for better landings, even without a hook turn. Give the kid a break. I think he's making a responsible choice. He wants better performance, not a smaller canopy, and that's what he's going to get. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #33 March 20, 2003 QuoteGive the kid a break. I think he's making a responsible choice At 100 jumps? I don't. I think that's asking for trouble. If he's already getting advanced canopy control coaching - then maybe. If he's already capable of landing the canopy he has on rear risers, in no wind, down wind, crosswind, within a 5 meter circle everytime and he's able to do flare turns and flat turns with it - then maybe. But we don't know that about him, do we? See, that's the thing about giving out gear advice online. We don't know enough about the person asking the question to know if they'll be "okay" on what they are considering or not. Not every dz offers advanced canopy control training, not every dz follows the ISP - there are still jumpers out there who've gotten no more canopy control training than what they learned in their first jump course. Skydive Chicago is a lot different than a one Cessna dz in Podunk, Kansas... Having given your opinion that he's making a responsible choice, how would you feel if you hear that on his fifth jump on that canopy someone cut him off on final and he did a hard toggle turn to avoid them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamsville 0 #34 March 20, 2003 The professor never gives anyone a break unless they earn it. I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane. Harry, FB #4143 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
betzilla 56 #35 March 20, 2003 True, someone could cut him off on short final, and he could do a hard toggle turn into the ground. But he could do that on a Sabre, or even a Manta. You need not fly a high performance canopy to quialify yourself to make stupid mistakes, after all.You do raise a good point about giving gear advice online though, it's something for me to think about, since I just discovered this place, and am now completely obsessed with it.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #36 March 20, 2003 QuoteBut he could do that on a Sabre It's already been mentioned that the spinetto dives more in a turn. This could be deciding factor in hospital or grave.____________________ Say no to subliminal messages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #37 March 20, 2003 QuoteYou need not fly a high performance canopy to quialify yourself to make stupid mistakes, after all. Correct. But stupid mistakes hurt more on higher performance canopies. Stilettos turn faster and dive more than Sabres. As you said, the Stiletto has a shorter control range - less input for more reaction is great if you have the experience to handle it when everything goes to shit, not so great if you don't. And we haven't even touched on things like harness steer and unrecoverable line twists requiring a cutaway on opening... Personally, I stand by what I said. The average 100 jump wonder is not yet skilled enough to handle a Stiletto at 1.3 when things go totally to shit. He may get lucky and never be in that situation... but there's no guarantee of that, is there? QuoteYou do raise a good point about giving gear advice online though That's why all of my recommendations here (and since I sell gear by phone and email, not in person, most of my recommendations at work) lean heavily toward the conservative side. I'd rather someone tells me they got bored with what I recommended than to hear they were injured or killed under it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,008 #38 March 20, 2003 >What is the extra safety margin of a Sabre150 over a Stiletto150? A Stiletto 150 will kill you more often if you do something dumb, and will on occasion put you in danger for no good reason (i.e. spin up on opening.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,008 #39 March 20, 2003 >True, someone could cut him off on short final, and he could do a >hard toggle turn into the ground. But he could do that on a Sabre, or > even a Manta. That's absolutely right. The only difference is that making that mistake under the Stiletto will kill him; making it under the Manta won't. There's something to be said for surviving your mistakes, especially at 100 jumps. > You need not fly a high performance canopy to > quialify yourself to make stupid mistakes, after all. Unfortunately, people who fly high perfomance canopies who make a stupid mistake only get to do it once. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamsville 0 #40 March 21, 2003 Having said on this thread that I like my Stiletto, I have had 2 spin-up cutaways on it. If you are in a line twist that cannot be kicked out of very quickly, it will probably spin on you and break towards the horizon. If it does this with no sign of an un-twist, CUT AWAY NOW. If no RSL, get stable on your belly quick, since you will probably be on your back to start with, and pull your reserve. If you didn't decide this early or aren't sure if you are stable (after you have cut away), pull your reserve ASAP. |I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane. Harry, FB #4143 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #41 March 21, 2003 Quote>True, someone could cut him off on short final, and he could do a >hard toggle turn into the ground. But he could do that on a Sabre, or > even a Manta. That's absolutely right. The only difference is that making that mistake under the Stiletto will kill him; making it under the Manta won't. There's something to be said for surviving your mistakes, especially at 100 jumps. Pretty much the same is true for driving an environmentally sound hybrid car compared to a Lincoln SUV. Maybe all new drivers should drive SUVs.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #42 March 21, 2003 QuotePretty much the same is true for driving an environmentally sound hybrid car compared to a Lincoln SUV. Maybe all new drivers should drive SUVs. That has to be the worst analogy I've ever heard. Even the smallest cars STILL pass safety ratings. If you want to play the car-analogy game, then think of a high performance canopy as a race car. You have to have special licenses and special training to drive a NASCAR or a Formula 1. You *could* just go out and get one, but chances are, it will be harder to do then if you get it properly. Same with canopies. Sure, you *can* get your hands on one, but it'll be harder to until you get the right jump numbers.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #43 March 21, 2003 QuoteQuotePretty much the same is true for driving an environmentally sound hybrid car compared to a Lincoln SUV. Maybe all new drivers should drive SUVs. That has to be the worst analogy I've ever heard. Even the smallest cars STILL pass safety ratings. If you want to play the car-analogy game, then think of a high performance canopy as a race car. You have to have special licenses and special training to drive a NASCAR or a Formula 1. You *could* just go out and get one, but chances are, it will be harder to do then if you get it properly. Same with canopies. Sure, you *can* get your hands on one, but it'll be harder to until you get the right jump numbers. We're talking about a 150 here, not exactly the Indy car of canopies. Jeez - I jump a Stiletto 150 and I'm an old fart (57, to be precise).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,008 #44 March 21, 2003 >Pretty much the same is true for driving an environmentally sound > hybrid car compared to a Lincoln SUV. Maybe all new drivers should > drive SUVs. That might be true if the hybrid was harder to drive or less safe in a crash than an SUV; however, neither is true. In many ways (reduced visibility, larger size to manipulate into a small parking spot, higher CG) an SUV is harder to learn on than a smaller car. A good analogy to learning on an SUV would be trying to learn to skydive on a large CRW canopy that doesn't flare well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #45 March 21, 2003 Quote Jeez - I jump a Stiletto 150 and I'm an old fart But you on the other hand have 10x the number of jumps.____________________ Say no to subliminal messages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
betzilla 56 #46 March 21, 2003 Quote think of a high performance canopy as a race car. OK, now we are really getting carried away. Think of a Stiletto as Formula I car? COME ON! We're not talking about a VX 46 here. So we don't agree on whether a 100 jump guy should jump a stiletto 150. That doesn't mean we don't agree on whetehr he should jump a Velocity 84! Byt the way, i can vouch for the fact that Kallend is in fact an "old fart." Sorry Professor, but you left yourself open for that one... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #47 March 21, 2003 Quote Quote think of a high performance canopy as a race car. OK, now we are really getting carried away. Think of a Stiletto as Formula I car? COME ON! We're not talking about a VX 46 here. So we don't agree on whether a 100 jump guy should jump a stiletto 150. That doesn't mean we don't agree on whetehr he should jump a Velocity 84! Byt the way, i can vouch for the fact that Kallend is in fact an "old fart." Sorry Professor, but you left yourself open for that one... I think I got it in before you did.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #48 March 21, 2003 QuoteQuote Jeez - I jump a Stiletto 150 and I'm an old fart But you on the other hand had 10x the number of jumps. HAVE, not "had". All but 55 of my jumps have been on Stiletto 135 or 150 canopies.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #49 March 21, 2003 In the hands of the right (or wrong) pilot and at the right wingloading, Even a Stiletto 150 can be a high performance canopy. No,its not a VX 46, but its not a Navigator 300 either. Look at it this way, I jump a Heatwave 170, sounds big right? Guess my wingloading. Just a hair under 1.7:1, talk to ANYone and they'll tell you that a heatwave (stiletto) at that wingloading IS a high performance canopy. (Oh, and I did say Nascar before Formula I...) --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #50 March 21, 2003 Quote Byt the way, i can vouch for the fact that Kallend is in fact an "old fart." Sorry Professor, but you left yourself open for that one... You wouldn't want me to tell about our tandem jump, would you?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
