Right-Of-Way

[bnacrazywoman 0]

While I was landing my Accuracy parachute today (Classic 238) after an uneventful freefall, opening, and approach, I was "buzzed" by a small, high performance parachute. The person flying the small canopy had to lift his legs to clear the top of my chute and yells "Hey, look out!" as he proceeded over the top of me. I was at about 60 ft above the ground when this happened. He and I both landed uneventfully, but a rear-end collision nearly happened. I went over to him and told him he was way in the wrong to be that close to my canopy that close to the ground. He had the audacity to say I cut him off on his approach. He had been attempting to swoop and neglected to clear in front or below him while trying to do so. Now, I understand people's need for speed, but when you start putting my life in danger pursuing this need, you are WAY WRONG! Observers on the ground told me he was way in the wrong as well. I told the S&TA about the incident and he confirmed that the lower canopy (me!) had the right-of-way. How many people are going to have to die from other's carelessness before you "swoopers" start getting it?

[mjosparky 4]

The best way to deal with people like that is to go up to them and in a very polite way stomp the fuck out of them. Pain is an excellent teacher.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[quade 4]

Well, actually, stomping the hell out of them only takes care of ONE guy at a time.

Probably a better solution would be to separate the high performance landing area from the general population.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[nightjumps 1]

Sparky, I am laughing my ass off here. I was expecting the usual who has the right of way discussion and yet you crystalized my sentiments exactly.

Thanks for the chuckle.

[Blahr 0]

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The best way to deal with people like that is to go up to them and in a very polite way stomp the fuck out of them. Pain is an excellent teacher.

2nd that sentiment. A good ass kicking might just prevent that ass from getting itself killed and taking someone else with it.

[mjosparky 4]

You are more than welcome. Always glad to be of service.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Tonto 1]

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How many people are going to have to die from other's carelessness before you "swoopers" start getting it?

Wow. I was right with you till you threw me in the same category as the wrongdoer and showed your prejudice against people using different gear to you..

But I'm just being defensive, right? You don't think that all swoopers are like that, Right?

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Ron 10]

Well first off. he was wrong...Did the S&TA talk to him?

Second. A seperate (But equal) landing area is not a bad idea, but a better idea is to not let yahoo, jackass, ego driven, morons continue to act like this.

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How many people are
going to have to die from other's carelessness before you "swoopers" start getting it?

This is however complete Bullshit.

Just because one guy acts like this does not make EVERYONE wrong.

Canopy colisions happened under Stratostars.

Its a moron under any canopy.

But to answer your question...Who has the right of way?

Everyone but ME!

As far as I am concerend you are all out to kill me.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mjosparky 4]

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Well first off. he was wrong...Did the S&TA talk to him?

Second. A seperate (But equal) landing area is not a bad idea, but a better idea is to not let yahoo, jackass, ego driven, morons continue to act like this.

Quote

How many people are
going to have to die from other's carelessness before you "swoopers" start getting it?

This is however complete Bullshit.

Just because one guy acts like this does not make EVERYONE wrong.

Canopy colisions happened under Stratostars.

Its a moron under any canopy.

But to answer your question...Who has the right of way?

Everyone but ME!

As far as I am concerend you are all out to kill me.

Come on Ron, tell me you agree with my solution.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Ron 10]

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Come on Ron, tell me you agree with my solution.

not for a first offense...maybe just a black eye or something for the first time.

2nd maybe.

3rd ya kill the family and that includes any family pets.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mr2mk1g 10]

burn them

[bnacrazywoman 0]

You are right, I probably overgeneralized. I get a little uptight when someone tries to kill me. Besides, I like swoopers. They are crunchy, and they taste good with Ketchup!

[freeflydrew 0]

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Probably a better solution would be to separate the high performance landing area from the general population.

Or do it like Skyidve Arizona does and use an alternate landing area for Accuracy canopies?

Doesn't THAT make sense too?

One of the Golden Knight teams was training at the Ranch, and they were exiting first and flying their accuracy canopies in deep brakes all the way across the landing area, and they were in everybody's way... I spoke to their camera man and they all designated a different place to land at very far away from where everyone else was landing.

It really wasn't a big deal, and no one got upset about any of it...

-drew

[billvon 2,991]

>The best way to deal with people like that is to go up to them and in
> a very polite way stomp the fuck out of them. Pain is an excellent
> teacher.

Unless they're bigger than you, in which case you are both in the wrong and end up with a broken jaw.

I've seen this happen probably a dozen times, and most of the time it was handled pretty well i.e. one person got mad, the other person either apologized or was just puzzled until someone else (apparently someone he trusted) told him what he did wrong. 99% of the time it's just thoughtlessness rather than any sort of malice.

[quade 4]

Six of one, half-dozen of the other. Point being separate the fast from the slow and a lot of these issues go away.

Now, with that in mind, would you say that the majority of all landings are high performance landings or non-speed enhanced landings? I don't realy care about individual landings, but rather the sport as a whole.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Designer 0]

good 1!

[Designer 0]

Low guy is supposed to have the right of way?In this case I might have found out where the guy lived and burned his house down!(just kidding)

[freeflydrew 0]

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Now, with that in mind, would you say that the majority of all landings are high performance landings or non-speed enhanced landings? I don't realy care about individual landings, but rather the sport as a whole.

Obviously there aren't more "high performance landing" than "non speed enhanced" landings
but,
I think that the majority of landings are not under accuracy canopies, and the pure method behind the way that they are flown can be hazardous to the "general population", in that they tend to fly/hover at lower altitudes and slower speeds congesting the landing area.

I know that there are negatives to hookin' it and swoopin, but I am intentionally not addressing them here because I don't think that that's where the problem lies.

-drew

[juanesky 0]

Well, adding to the insanity to what this forum is about I will have to add the situation at the DZ I was last weekend.

On one jump, a fellow jumper (did a 5 way with him) was above me when landing, he came to talk to me, letting me know that I cut him off, I told him that being lower, I had the right of way, yet, this is a new zone for me, and have made the decision of making it my home DZ, yet this guy is part of the staff.

Personally I think if people are trying to do HP landings in a congested area, why on earth then don't they try hop n pops and be safe, so they can all do what they want, on the other hand, I know swoopers on the same load, that have waited their turn accordingly.

I am by all means a non experienced jumper, nad have made many mistakes, from which I try to learn, particularly those silent rules never pointed out, since I started (I realize that if I have read all the sims, most could have been avoided).

But on the other hand I have seen countless HP or HP wannabes cut people who are conservative for them to do their tricks, no close calls, but rather in the uncomfortable zone for the person being cut off.

Now considering the fact that high loaded pilots, even though experienced, are more likely to get hurt in the areas they usually land (ie closer to the buldings, and recreation areas of the DZ), wouldn't it make sense to get them an area less congested, and have them land further down at least a bit more?
Don't get me wrong I know that HP pilots are usually good, but wouldn't common sense to make it that way for them?

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[ianmdrennan 2]

Juane,

I'm not sure of the jumper you are referring to or the incident for that matter, but you were approached on at least one other occasion because of errattic landing patterns. Are you sure this isn't what the jumper was trying to relay? It's hard to avoid someone if you have no idea where they are going next - I'd opt for landing somewhere else, but the jumper may not have had enough altitude for that - given our surrounding obstacles.

As for your suggestion on moving the HP's somewhere else. We are working on that but until we find a solution we all need to learn to live together. That means both HP and NON hp pilots flying a consitant, considerate pattern and HP pilots knowing when to say no to a performance landing.

I'm glad you've decided to make Orange your home. We're happy to have you so try not to let this dampen your view. Instead bring your concerns to manifest so that they can direct you to the appropriate people to deal with the issue. It's a club, we all have a say so make sure you exercise that right.

Blue skies, see you this weekend.

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[juanesky 0]

Hey Ian,

Thanks for the welcome, and yes I know I did not have the right to lose alti on the Landing Area even though in that jump I was clear, and had the right of way, it probably confused many on traffic, but the jump that I am referring to on my previous post was a day before, Saturday.

Again, I am not pointing fingers at anyone nor will I do this publicly, the matter stayed between this person and me.

It is just a point I think is valid for everyone's safety. For I have been seen many instances where the canopy flying lower is passed by someone spiraling down, and the constant pressure of some trying to do absolutely everything in one dive.

Personally, I think that you are one of the most safety conscious skydivers around there, and always willing to teach newbies, or point out things you don't think are ok as well as having your ears open when needed, I have learn many valuable lessons more than once, and this has inspired me to also look at other peoples rigs, and equipment on the way up, for we really have to look after each other.

On this case is the issue that sometimes anyone wanting to do an HP landing, just spiralling down to get there before when in traffic is just simply not right, it is not your case, for I have seen that you have on many occasions botched your attempt of swooping and land your handkerchief (84? DAMN) as I do mine....flat and square....

Blue ones to everyone!

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[ianmdrennan 2]

Ok, I don't want to open old wounds but lets get some things straight.

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and yes I know I did not have the right to lose alti on the Landing Area even though in that jump I was clear, and had the right of way, it probably confused many on traffic,

You weren't clear, there were at least 2 other canopies coming in on finals when you did you 3 360's and stopped at tree top level. Right of way does not mean you get to do whatever you want. Regardless I know you learned from this experience so let's put that one aside.

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It is just a point I think is valid for everyone's safety. For I have been seen many instances where the canopy flying lower is passed by someone spiraling down, and the constant pressure of some trying to do absolutely everything in one dive.

And it's a very valid point . See my post in the Arizona fatality to see what I think about canopies that spiral down into the pattern and how it can screw up everyone because of their inconsideration.

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Personally, I think that you are one of the most safety conscious skydivers around there, and always willing to teach newbies, or point out things you don't think are ok as well as having your ears open when needed, I have learn many valuable lessons more than once, and this has inspired me to also look at other peoples rigs, and equipment on the way up, for we really have to look after each other.

I appreciate the compliment. I just want everyone to have a safe enjoyable skydive, as does everyone else. Yes we do have to look after one another.

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for I have seen that you have on many occasions botched your attempt of swooping and land your handkerchief (84? DAMN) as I do mine....flat and square....

Umm....I don't think you've ever seen me "botch" a swoop attempt. In fact, touch wood, I haven't botched a landing (well..except 1 this sat when fell over on sat .

Either way I do see your point so bring it up at the next club meeting. It's all our responsibility to make this as safe as we can.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[poohbeer 0]

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Now considering the fact that high loaded pilots, even though experienced, are more likely to get hurt in the areas they usually land (ie closer to the buldings, and recreation areas of the DZ), wouldn't it make sense to get them an area less congested, and have them land further down at least a bit more?
Don't get me wrong I know that HP pilots are usually good, but wouldn't common sense to make it that way for them?

Well, if you move HP canopies away that means moving slower closer. And with the slower ones are also the students. And student don't do well with buildings in theire way.
Sounds logical? Hope so, cause it does to me

------- SIGNATURE BELOW -------
Complete newbie at skydiving, so be critical about what I say!!
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

[juanesky 0]

Hey Ian,

Thanks for the input. In regards to the botched attempt, the meaning was not swooping as usual...on Sunday. You just waited your turn and took it easy....

In regards of you being a safety conscious skydiver, don't i was not including the staff, what I should have made clear to everyone is non-staff skydiver..... All staff in Jumptown, are just excellent, and are there to help us out.

Billvon, I owe u big time as it is, my first rear riser landing.......thanks, and definitely look forward to pay for that beer...


Blue skies everyone.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[ianmdrennan 2]

Juane,

Thanks. Sometimes things get lost in text so I appreciate you clearing up the issue.

See you this weekend (Dave Brown hybrids).

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team