the newbie race to be headown

[tattoojeff 0]

ive had 2 close calls this past weekend with 100 jump wonders rushing to be headdown. one streamed past me jst 30-40 feet away from me under canopy. god i wanted to freak out on this kid so bad... so i took a deep breath and waited till i was done packing to "talk with him".
his was a prime example of confusing ignorance for confidence
1) no awarness to sliding under sticks
2) cant fly in a sit without corking
3) no audible altimeter
i pointed all these mistakes out to him and just got this blank look in return. hey i know we were all flailers at first but i dont think i was this hard headed.
How do you all handle these situations?

[AggieDave 6]

Have you mentioned it to the S&TA? He/she should be aware of these sorts of situations, so he/she may talk to the jumper in question, if the jumper refuses to listen to those around him.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[tattoojeff 0]

yes i mentioned it to our s&ta. my main concern is getting new freeflyers to understand how important headup flying is. it develops all the fundamentals for safe flying as well as your foundation for freeflight.

[JDBoston 0]

I agree with you there may be a trend out there, but it sounds like this guy is just a good old garden variety fucking idiot.

Personally, I spent probably 100-120 of my 180+ jumps freeflying, and am now going back to RW for a bit... but it was all sitflying, and I wasn't going to try going headdown until I got the cartwheels and other transitions down, which was what I was working on when I was most current at sitflying a couple months ago. I had an audible virtually from the start, and my jumping partners were people who all had at least several times my freefly jumps.

I think people like your guy should get the bowling talk. It's nothing to do with freeflying, he's just a moron.

Joe

[davelepka 4]

I had a similar problem a couple weeks ago. It got me to thinking that a poorly executed head-down can cover as much ground as a steep tracking dive, and that newbies will hold this position for the duration of the skydive thinking everything is OK. The only solution I could come up with was to talk to them about this situation, and advise the following:

A. If you cannot hold a heading while head-down, do not stay head-down for more than 5 sec. After 5 sec. transition to a position you have more control over, and see rule "B".

B. Using the jump run heading, choose a heading for your skydive that will have you flying across the jump run, as opposed to up or down it. If it is early or late in the day, the sun is an excellent reference point (as in, the sun should always be on your left, or in front of you or whatever.).

While this is not a perfect system, it's the best idea I could come up with at the time. If anyone has an alternate idea, or addiitons to the existing plan, please post them, as this problem isn't going away any time soon, and we need some sort of plan or structure for the newbies to keep them (and everyone else) safe.

Edit: Not to downplay the role of the S&TA, but I can think of more than one S&TA dos not have very much, if any, freefly expereince. If this is the case, it might be wise to consult one of the more expereinced freefliers, and have them, and the S&TA take a look at the problem at hand.

[JDBoston 0]

Sounds like an excellent idea to me... maybe DZs that have more than a few freefliers could have a "freefly LO" or some other designated person to kind of shepherd the low-timers, and make sure no one's doing anything that might endanger other people on the load.

Peer pressure may be a good tool too - if people want to try HD before they're ready, just rag on them about how their sitflying sucks and they shouldn't be doing HD yet.

Or require a minimum # of HD coach jumps (and maybe a sign-off) before they can practice it solo?

Joe

[davelepka 4]

I don't think that sit fly skills relate to your head-down skills. I know many jumpers who can sit fly reasonably well, but cannot fly head-down at all. The only advantage to being able to sit (in the scenario I outlined) is if you are following the 5 sec. rule, you can keep your speed up while transitioning to check/control your heading.

As opposed to requiring coach jumps, maybe the better idea is to require a safety briefing from an expereinced freeflier. This could include the info on heading awareness, as well as some basic theory and equipment safety considerations. The advantage to this is that it can be given after hours, and it shouldn't take much more than 20 min. (with a preset cirriculum). I would hope that every DZ could find one freeflier willing to donate his or her time, so that the newbies could get this info, and be safe, without costing them a penny. Of course if they want to buy some after-briefing beer, thats another story.

Any thoughts on what info a newbie (lets say 20 jumps) should know before trying to freefly?

[JDBoston 0]

True, but do you think people SHOULD become proficient at sitflying before they try HD? I can't think of any people I know who are good HD flyers but can't sitfly at least reasonably well.

Joe

[davelepka 4]

I too have a hard time thinking of people who can fly HD and not sit. I think the reason that people seem to start of out in the sit is that it is A) the upright orientation is easier for people to adapt to, and B) there is less of a tendency for beginers to move across the sky in the sit as opposed to HD. This built in lack of mobility gives them the oppertunity to go on some dives where the zoominess of beginer HD would be unsafe.

These factors not withstanding, I think that the two body posittions are unrelated, aside form the need for increased safety and alti-awareness due to the speeds involved. If a jumper is prepared to follow the heading awareness rules previously discussed, and is willing to spend more time on solos or two ways with more experienced flyers before getting to bigger more complicated stuff, I see no reason why HD couldn't come first. In reality however, it would be difficult to locate a jumper with the required patience and dicipline to follow this path correctly. Most newbies only listen to half of what you tell them anyway (especially when it comes to canopy selection and control) and take the free spirited types who are drawn to freefly on top of that, and you might as well be talking to a wall.

[SkydiverRick 0]

Quote

I don't think that sit fly skills relate to your head-down skills.

I'm just an old belly flyer so I may be way off base here, but isn't sit flyng a survival technique for head downers. I was under the impression that you had to be able to sit fly so that you don't cork and kill somebody.

never pull low......unless you are

[davelepka 4]

Close, but not quite. The sit is the "recovery" position for some freefliers only because their sit skills are stronger than their HD skills. So in the event of a collision or funnel, these flyers will revert to sit (where, you are correct, they can maintain their speed), regain composure, then possibly transition back to their head.

More skilled HD flyers can avoid corking by either quickly returning to a HD position after a collision or funnel, or by performing a rotaiton on some sort (back loop, front loop, etc) and simply returning to HD. In truth the corking many jumpers expereince is due to their lack of experience, and barring the aforementioned collision or funnel, more expereinced HD flyers will rarely have a problem with corking. HD is a stable body postion, and if the jumper has the skills, there will be no "random" corking which needs addressing.

Again, as I mentioned, a jumper looking to skip the sit and learn HD first off, will have more work ahead of them on the road to proficient and safe flying.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Agreed, but we're not talking about experienced flyers here.

Rook Nelson once told me - learn all aspects of sit and stand before headdown, it'll make the transition easier. I figure he probably knows more than me
Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[davelepka 4]

Certainly a good source indeed. I wonder though what the thought process is?
Te quicker progression through upright flying will have you jumping with, and learning from, better flyers sooner. It's tough to replace the knowledge and understanding you can gain from witnessing something first hand, as in seeing a good HD flyer fly up and dock on you. You will certainly find yourself in this position sooner if you start upright, and the whole concept of FREEfly is to be free to express yourslef through your flying, which is facilitated by being able to fly on all axis.

I do stand behind the concept that upright and HD are two completely different things, involving different flight surfaces and principals. But thats just me..

[Katzeye 0]

Suggest a coach he respects. Skydiving is so much different when there's video or another for proof!

Is a chicken omelette redundant?

[ianmdrennan 2]

It's all good. I just thought I'd throw that in there.

As long as we're all being safe I'm a happy camper
Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[VectorBoy 0]

What does HD have to do with it? If you were in the saddle and a belly flyer went by you 30~ 40 feet wouldn't you be upset? Or how about a wingsuit?
You didn't state if he was in your group out the door or part of another group, or at what alti did you deploy. HD requires extra time and altitude to slow down for deployment and track away from others.
This sounds like an awareness situation regardless of how they were flying

[Newbie 0]

Quote

1) no awarness to sliding under sticks

hi - whats that mean?

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[andy2 0]

hi newbie, I am also a newbie, but I think a "stick" of jumpers means a group of jumpers. So I guess that statement means no awareness of sliding under another group of jumpers on the same load (i.e. maybe you just slid under that 4 way, etc). Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it might originally be a military term?

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[Newbie 0]

Quote

hi newbie, I am also a newbie, but I think a "stick" of jumpers means a group of jumpers. So I guess that statement means no awareness of sliding under another group of jumpers on the same load (i.e. maybe you just slid under that 4 way, etc). Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it might originally be a military term?

hi yeah i figured it was something to do with infringing on another group/jumper etc - thanks.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Ron 10]

Stick is military speak for a group of jumpers.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

Quote

What does HD have to do with it? If you were in the saddle and a belly flyer went by you 30~ 40 feet
wouldn't you be upset? Or how about a wingsuit?

Well if anyone passes me in freefall, they will get a talk.

However HD is much more likley to cause this situation.

1. A HD guy that is not HD, but tracking all over will cover more area than new RW guy will back slide.

2. It is harder to maintain "Line of flight" doing HD while you are learning than being flat.

With these two it makes it much easier for a new HD guy to cover the distance between the groups.

But its bad juju anyway.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[davelepka 4]

Here's what I think HD has to do with it.

1. Higher speeds

2. Increased mobility

The newer HD flyer is more likely to become involved in the "close call" situation due to these two factors. Yes, awareness is important in all modes of flying, but it is especially improtant when you combine the above factors with a lack of expereince with which to handle these factors.

[billvon 3,073]

>Well if anyone passes me in freefall, they will get a talk.

This will become an interesting question for wingsuits, I think, because wingsuit flyers typically fly away from the DZ then head back to the same area that everyone else is using. They'll open a minute later, but will still be in the same area, and may well be below higher openers at that point. Rather than using exit separation to prevent collisions the issue will be more - how much room should wingsuits leave 'normal' jumpers, given their greater control of opening point?

[Tonto 1]

I'd send him away for a month to think about it. Maybe next time he'll try harder not to be busted.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Tonto 1]

Spot on.

t

It's the year of the Pig.