skybytch 273 #1 February 5, 2003 You have 50 jumps. You weigh 200 pounds. Someone at your dz hands you a Diablo 120. You jump it and manage to survive, but think it's kind of slow. The same someone then recommends that you buy a Crossfire 109. You find someone else who has a used one that they're willing to sell you. Ethically, who is responsible for your impending death or dismemberment? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #2 February 5, 2003 Ay caramba! Well, the jumper, as always, bears responsibility for his actions. But selling that cowboy into a 2:1 at 50 jumps is unethical as hell. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #3 February 5, 2003 somehow, I dont think this is an hypothetical question.......Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #4 February 5, 2003 Duh... the manufactor! They should have had requirements and safeguards in place to prevent someone from being able to purchase something beyond their skill ability. What do you mean they dont?!?! /sarcasm At least is the Crossfire red so the blood is'nt that easly noticed? And send me their number... I sense cheap gear coming up.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #5 February 5, 2003 Ethically, I think everyone involved with both canopies are responsible. At 50 jumps, he's not just a a danger to himself but to everyone else around so much so that ethically, the DZO should be made aware, step in and say not at my dropzone. But, that would be a perfect world. -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #6 February 5, 2003 >Ethically, who is responsible for your impending death or dismemberment? Isn't god always looking out for us? Surely if he's all powerful he could have thickened the air or something to prevent the death or injury. He did stuff like that all the time in the Old Testament. Might as well blame him if he just sits back and lets the guy die. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #7 February 5, 2003 Quote >Ethically, who is responsible for your impending death or dismemberment? Isn't god always looking out for us? Surely if he's all powerful he could have thickened the air or something to prevent the death or injury. He did stuff like that all the time in the Old Testament. Might as well blame him if he just sits back and lets the guy die. I like this answer ... Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #8 February 5, 2003 Quotethe DZO should be made aware, step in and say not at my dropzone. Okay, but what if the "someone" who handed you that Diablo and then recommended that Crossfire was the dzo and the person who taught you to skydive? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sebazz1 2 #9 February 5, 2003 I just want to know what 200 pounder thinks a 120 is slow? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Opie 0 #10 February 5, 2003 You are responsible. The other two may not be good people nor your friends, the local S&TA, or your instructors that didn't try to explain why this is not the right canopy for you at this time. But you are ultimately responsible for your actions and will be the one that pays the price. This is a inherintly dangerous sport and if you are always going to be looking to place blame for your own bad judgements and actions on someone other than yourself. I would suggest you take up bowling instead. Skydiving, it's not for everyone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,452 #11 February 5, 2003 This is a case where a good discussion by several really strong guys with the 200-lb wonder would be a good idea. After all, a good beating isn't going to hurt nearly as much as the eventual biffed landing. And just in case the guy would have ended up being the one lucky one in a million who doesn't biff it badly enough, then maybe he won't be that inspiration to morons the world over. Either that or at his next reserve repack (assuming he makes it that long), find something wrong with it. Take a really long time to fix it. And offer him as a free loaner something more appropriate. I'd consider telling the "friends" they're not welcome at the DZ any more. Not as an owner, just as someone pissed off who will work hard to make their lives miserable if they stay. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #12 February 5, 2003 Quote I just want to know what 200 pounder thinks a 120 is slow? I'm a 200 pounder, but the smallest canopy I've flow to date is my Sabre2 190. So I wouldn't know how slow a 120 is. In fact I doubt I'd ever fly something that small (thinking that a 135 or a 150 would be the smallest I'd ever be able to safely pilot after thousands of jumps under my belt). Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #13 February 5, 2003 I pose another conundrum. Would it be unethical to pull his reserve before he could load? Pull his main PC and run it out to line stretch?"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #14 February 5, 2003 I think it is ethical for anyone who has more experience, and recognizes the danger of the situation to inform me (as the hypothertcal jumper) of thier opinion. But in the end all of us are responsible for our own actions. Perhapse the S&TA, DZM, DZO, or other empowered safty official, will step in and forbid the person to jump untill they have the required experience. Of course the person could just go jump somewhere else.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spinetto 0 #15 February 5, 2003 Quote Okay, but what if the "someone" who handed you that Diablo and then recommended that Crossfire was the dzo and the person who taught you to skydive? Then I don't want to jump under the supervision of this dzo...ever!! I take resposibilty for my own decisions but I think I'm at a point where those decisions are somewhat educated. I think this scenario makes them potentially a danger to not only themselves but everyone else in the sky with them. I think we should be taking care of each other and trying to keep each other alive! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Albatross 0 #16 February 5, 2003 WOW, Lisa I hope to hell that this is no one that I know or anywhere I jump. We all have a responsibility to police our sport. The people who let him demo the 120 are Asses and need to take a good long look at themselves. Any person who is in a position of responsibility or authority should have their position pulled and rating revoked. I can't do anything to the IDIOT who would sell that person small conopy but I would shun them and would be likely not to jump with them (if they would do this what else would they do). That all being said they ultimate responsibility lies with the jumper himself (I assume it would be a guy no woman I have met would be that dumb). I know that when I bought my new canopy I test jumped several and looked at the sizes. I found the 120 Sabre2 to be great. However, when it was time to buy I chose the 135 because I could land it better in a bad situation. We must alwyas ask ourself not if I can land this in the grass into the wind on a cold day, but can I carve around the idiot that runs aross the landing area in a cross wind in the middle of the summer or off the DZ.Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #17 February 5, 2003 Quote This is a case where a good discussion by several really strong guys with the 200-lb wonder would be a good idea. After all, a good beating isn't going to hurt nearly as much as the eventual biffed landing. UMM...Series ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #18 February 5, 2003 Quote Isn't god always looking out for us? No, Bill. I have it on good authority that he is always looking AT us. He created humans as the ultimate reality television show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #19 February 5, 2003 Is the person who sold you the gun ( legally ) responsible for the murder you have done with the gun ? (or in this case killed your self) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #20 February 5, 2003 QuoteOkay, but what if the "someone" who handed you that Diablo and then recommended that Crossfire was the dzo and the person who taught you to skydive? So that there is no confusion, although they may believe it, DZO's are not deities, so I'm pretty sure that their judgment is just as susceptible to fault as any other skydiver. However they are a little higher profile, and we do live in a litigious society, so any DZO that made that kind of recommendation, obviously is insane, and doesn't value his/her dropzone any more. In order to help them out I'd be willing to let them sign over ownership to me say, tomorrow at around 3pm? just my nickel's worth.....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #21 February 5, 2003 Quote ( legally ) No, not legally responsible. Ethically responsible. This is skydiving; I'd never say that someone was legally responsible for anyone else's injury or death, even if I thought they were. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #22 February 5, 2003 Quote Quote ( legally ) No, not legally responsible. Ethically responsible. This is skydiving; I'd never say that someone was legally responsible for anyone else's injury or death, even if I thought they were. Sorry.. My bad . What I ment to say that the GUN had been sold legally... Hey Im a Finn.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trilete312 0 #23 February 5, 2003 Anyone that would recommend something like that to a new jumper has NO Ethics. I am 200 lbs and very new, but I have enough sense to know that there is no way in Hell I can control something like that. I would have a serious problem with anyone who would even make me the offer to jump it.----------- Ready, Set, Gooooooo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #24 February 5, 2003 I wouldn't say they were ethically responsible. They were contributory, but not responsible. If Joe tells you to jump off a bridge and you do it, Joe's a jerk but you had the choice. If Joe tells you to jump a canopy loaded at 2:1, same deal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jessica 0 #25 February 5, 2003 QuoteThey were contributory, but not responsible. If Joe tells you to jump off a bridge and you do it, Joe's a jerk but you had the choice. Yeah, but maybe you're new to the planet and aren't aware how bad jumping off a bridge could hurt you. Maybe Joe's your best source of information about the sport. Maybe you trust him, because he taught you how to skydive. Maybe you haven't spent hours reading about wingloadings on dropzone.com, and believe what Joe tells you.Skydiving is for cool people only Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
