Spinetto 0 #51 February 6, 2003 Quote Here's something I do need: next time you - I mean anyone reading this - heads for the DZ, pick the guy you think is the most at chance of getting involved in a canopy collision someday. Then spend 5 mn talking to him. I copied this from franck102's recent post in talk back when asked if there is anything he needs. This guy sounds like a good candidate for at least 5 minutes of someones time (someone other than the dzo who gave him the great advice in the first place). BTW - I was thinking last night that wouldn't it be cool if this guy gets back to the dz and the instructor says "What?? I told you to look for a 220 fool!" *smack upside the head* The canopy you jumped was a 220 not a 120!!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #52 February 6, 2003 QuoteThe problem is going to get worse, not better. In 10 years, a loading of 2:1 at 50 jumps will be accepted, and people will be wringing their hands over the landing fatality rates. The only thing that can stop this is us. And that means all of us, not just the canopy nazis and instructors, it means everyone. It means that _you_ pick a canopy that will land you safely every time rather than something that will give you a better surf. It means _you_ teach people canopy control before they downsize to a canopy they are terrified to experiment on. It means _you_ make a stink about their choices, even if you get branded a dick, or a canopy nazi. And it means, as well, that you, the jumper, say "fuck you" when people question you about taking the canopy control class at 40 jumps...it means being able to stand up to the peer pressure and the idolization of the small canopy jumpers and saying, "someday...and that is NOT today...but someday", and waiting until you can handle it (screw instant gratification). And it also means being inquisitive, and listening to the advice you're given even if you don't want to hear it. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #53 February 6, 2003 Well, the canopy collision at Byron had nothing to do with loading. I'm familiar with the incident, and high wingloading wasn't the primary factor, if it was even a factor at all. I experienced something at Eloy I hadn't yet (BEER!), and that was paying a dollar more to have my 170 packed than my 150. I agree with everything BillVon said, and I know that a dollar is a trivial thing when compared to safety, but that "dollar line" that is crossed to get to the "regular" sized parachutes of 150sf or smaller is a big psychological issue. Especially for the type-A males that are big in our sport. I just wanted to note that there is also a financial incentive to downsize that I wasn't aware of until recently, in addition to the coolio peer pressure. "I can't wait until I only have to pay $5 for a pack job, when I have a 'regular'-sized parachute!" (Pack your own, I know, but you get the point) JP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spinetto 0 #54 February 6, 2003 Quote Well, the canopy collision at Byron had nothing to do with loading. I'm familiar with the incident, and high wingloading wasn't the primary factor, if it was even a factor at all. Err... I think you missed my point, and francks. I'm familiar with the incident also. I don't think he meant you should only spend five minutes with someone who will have exactly the same kind of collison. How could anybody know that? I just meant that it's good to see everybody's responses here on dz.com and it would be good if all the newbies got a chance to hear from lots of different experienced skydivers, not just the one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #55 February 7, 2003 Who said it was a guy???? "America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyMissy 0 #56 February 7, 2003 The fact that a decent person should help people, especially when it can save that person's life is not the issue here. The issue is that as a human with a free will, it is your responsibility to make sure that you dont die by doing something stupid. If you can't figure out who's advice to trust (which is sad, because I've never been led astray by an I or a DZO), then you must find a way to educate yourself. Just trying to steer the thread back to the question. ________________________________________________ Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #57 February 7, 2003 >Who said it was a guy???? Guys tend to do stupid ego-driven things a lot more often than girls. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #58 February 7, 2003 I agree."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Albatross 0 #59 February 7, 2003 Like I said earlier, no woman I know would try to jump a canopy at 1.5+ at 50 jumps but there are several men who have and many more who have seriously concidered it. Why do you think that so many men die during their teenage years. We thik that we are unbreakable.Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #60 February 7, 2003 QuoteI've sold Stilettos and Crossfires at 1.3 - 1.5 to guys with 200 -250 jumps; that's about the minimum raw jump numbers that I'd be comfortable with. That is also the largest segment of our group that is killing themselves under a good canopy. I would go with the 1.3...but 1.5 is high in my opinion."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #61 February 7, 2003 QuoteGuys tend to do stupid ego-driven things a lot more often than girls. I firmly disagree. Girls do just as many stupid ego-driven things as guys. Jumping high performance heavily loaded canopies isn't one of them. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #62 February 8, 2003 QuoteI would go with the 1.3...but 1.5 is high in my opinion. I agree, but when the manufacturer's are sending them demos at those wingloadings... it's pretty hard for me to refuse to sell them something that the manufacturer feels they are ready for. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #63 February 8, 2003 As you know, my remark was tongue in cheek and you were right to redirect the thread, but it sure has generated some interesting discussions."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #64 February 8, 2003 Despite all the points of view hashed over here I (IMHO) believe that everyone is responsible for themselves, their actions and decisions. Those who see some about to make a big mistake (ITHO) have a responsibility to point it out. But unless the actions of the person making a bad choice affects the well being (I am thinking of the DZ or the sport here) or safety (of others around them) then they may have to live ,if they are lucky, with the choice they make. Still leaves the debate wide open though "America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmsmith 1 #65 February 8, 2003 QuoteDuh...the manufactor! You're a democrat, right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #66 February 8, 2003 Missed the /scarcasm huh? Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skr 1 #67 February 8, 2003 > Ethically, who is responsible Maybe another question is more useful. Saying that we are responsible for our own decisions may be true (may be), but it doesn't follow that we are responsible for the outcomes. We put in our 1%, the universe tosses in its 99%, and the results happen. We all take advice that we don't fully understand the consequences of, from doctors, from tax accountants, from astrologers, friends, television commercials ... And we all know DZOs and other people who give bad advice for their own purposes. Maybe another question is more useful. Like what can we do when we see it happening? I will often say something to the person, or the DZO, but not always. Un asked for help is often experienced as an intrusion, and a lot of people don't listen, and there are just too many people doing unwise (unwise to me) things to be able to fix it all anyway. So I often try, but not always. Skr Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmsmith 1 #68 February 8, 2003 Quote Missed the /scarcasm huh? I missed the leading , so I took you seriously! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eyeinthesky 0 #69 February 8, 2003 the jumper for being that stupid, but if i watched it all happen then saw the guy plant himself in the ground, id be pissed at the guy who sold it to him too doughey, i was stupid before stupid was cool! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skr 1 #70 February 9, 2003 > Ethically, who is responsible I've been mulling this and there doesn't seem to be a clear cut answer. At 50 jumps a person should probably know better, but they may not due to poor training. Or they may be a testoserone poisened young male who sort of knows better but wants even more to be cool. So that seems like ignorance or possibly irresponsiblity. The person who gave them the 120 and then recommended a 109 could also be young and ignorant, but if they are experienced they are certainly being irresponsible. I'm not sure where ethics fits in that. The person who sold it to them could also be ignorant, but if they are experienced they are being irresponsible and unethical. So I guess if we are focusing on the ethical aspect of the chain of causes and effects, it would be the person who sold it. Skr Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cameramonkey 0 #71 February 12, 2003 why doesnt the DZO/gear dealer just recommend the noob strap a camera to his head while he's at it? And as for the gun analogy I read somewhere in here, this would only apply if the buyer were not of age (physically or mentally) and of the maturity to own a gun. Sell me a gun? NOBODY but me should be liable. Sell it to my 8yo nephew, by all means the person who sold it to him is liable. IMHO the mfr should only be liable if the particular item is prone to malfunction that leads to death or injury. But thats another story for another thread..... just my .02 Two wrongs don't make a right, however three lefts DO! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeanJeanie 0 #72 February 12, 2003 Lisa, Are you in a quandry? The parents are to blame..................of course! he he he Arms straight up, straight in aproach......... umpf, tumble, arg, papf, "damn I think I need a faster canopy" ~~We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly~~MLK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TitaniumLegs 8 #73 February 14, 2003 QuoteIs the person who sold you the gun ( legally ) responsible for the murder you have done with the gun ? (or in this case killed your self) If he sells it to a child, the DA could make a good case for criminal negligence. In some places, if he sold it to somebody without the proper qualifications (weapons training or a license) he could also get in deep doodoo. I know you said "legally" but it's also unethical. In many cases, the law exists because otherwise many people won't behave ethically. There aren't laws on parachute sales, since the feds don't see it as a big enough problem, unlike guns. Peter (>o|-< If you don't believe me, ask me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
midwaychris 0 #74 February 14, 2003 iam an AFP student, if that makes a difference ? i think it does. for the record i have a wopping 11 jumps. and my last 3 jumps went as follows 150 sabre 150 saphire 150 saphire i weigh 165 fully geared,and questioned my small size wing for a beginner the first 150 jump then went for the 150 on my own with my jm aporvall. and quess what all stand up landings.even hit the peas on my last jump.great training and supervision probally helped,whatdo guys think? MIDWAY CHRIS STL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamsville 0 #75 February 14, 2003 Unless I miss my guess, I think I've seen you with Dave Cicarelli. He also helped train me, so there might be a grey hair somewhere.I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane. Harry, FB #4143 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
