would you get out of the plane if?

[billvon 2,991]

>Question: Do you stop at the door to spot and clear the airspace, or
>do you go blindly on faith?

I go blindly on faith if it's a normal situation (i.e. at Perris.) After I land I talk to the floaters/camera guy and ask if they checked for traffic, and if not, to do so in the future. If they kept refusing I would reconsider if I wanted to jump with them.

Stupidest thing I ever did with regards to checking for traffic - we were doing a 60 way, and just before climbout (we were right trail) the pilot yelled "Hold! We have traffic!" We closed the door and sat down. A few seconds later the cameraman said "Shit!" jammed his helmet on, opened the door and dove out. We all followed him. As I left the door I was thinking to myself "now how stupid is this? We're getting out when we know there's traffic under us?" I just did the lemming thing. It made me realize that I get the herd mentality too often sometimes, and that a lot of times it's not OK to just go along with what everyone else is doing.

Fortunately there was no traffic near us. A cheap learning experience.

[Jasmin 0]

I know my DZ from the air quite well. If it ain't familiar I ain't getting out.
BUT If you're first at the door spend that one- minute from the 1 or 3 min bell/light to look for the dz and familiar spots.
DON'T spend 5 min looking for it once the JUMP light/bell comes on or tandems and students and other jumpers land off because of your selfishness.
There was an incident at my DZ several years back where the pilot stuffed up using the GPS and put the load out at 14,000ft at Tonto ie about 4nm from the DZ. They struggled to make it back past the water catchment (heavy trees) to the freeway. Which still meant they were 7 minutes by car from the DZ.....the spot is not always right, but you should be looking for the DZ before the jump light/bell not after it.
Just my $2.02 worth

xj

"I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both."

[bodypilot90 0]

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DON'T spend 5 min looking for it once the JUMP light/bell comes on or tandems and students and other jumpers land off because of your selfishness.

Everyone landed on the dz. Mr. Mouth's student landed near the peas even. I checked the tape, after Bill Von talking about video, 8 sec between green and our exit. I'll keep the tape and if Mr. Mouth acts up I'll pull in the STA and DZO and work on his attitude.

You think I should be concerned for others on loads with Mr mouth?

[crazy 0]

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You are in the second row of divers out of an Otter. You watch the base and floaters climb out and notice they are so busy setting up, they never look down. The head bobbing starts and away they go. Question: Do you stop at the door to spot and clear the airspace, or do you go blindly on faith? And answer honestly.

2 different things: spotting and clearing the airspace.
For jumping in a place with extremely bad spots and no traffic, when it's possible i usually have an eye (if not both) on the spot, whatever the aircraft, whoever is in front of me. I clear the airspace only (and not always) when i'm at the door because it takes too much time.
Anyway, at the Otter DZ were i went, i hardly saw anybody clearing the airspace properly. The problem is not the traffic right below, now; it's the traffic 1 or 2 miles away. It's impossible to see that far to the right side while standing at the door, even with the head a bit outside. It's obvious when someone actually clears the airspace... It's obvious when someone doesn't. I admire you all guys who are so conscientious that you do it on every jump, even from rear doors (looks like there are quite a few of you on DZ.com).
I also had my fair share of landings off DZ, for blindly following the others. The worst was trusting a pilot: "you have to go... you have to go now... go, go...". The last one out heard the end of the sentence: "... i'm lost!". Nevertheless, as my own bad spots also sent people off DZ, i have no problems with trusting a good pilot.

--
Come
Skydive Asia

[Jasmin 0]

I'm just trying to say that spending 8 sec looking for the DZ after the bell/light, on a day where there's 20-30 knot winds and a plane of 2 and 3 ways or tandems and AFF (ie lots of groups), can result in a bunch of people landing off.
Hell yeah, if you're 1st on the door, check the spot; but do it either before the jump light/bell, or as you go to climbout if you're confident of your knowledge of the DZ from the air.
I've been on a load where 10 seconds of piss farting on the door by one 3-way caused 5 of a load of 21 to land off and many more to land in the far far paddocks.

xj

"I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both."

[Gawain 0]

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When the green light goes on in my airplane that is NOT the time to start looking out the door. I'll give the door light on with plenty of time for the first group to come to a concensus that they are in the right place.

I was looking through my stuff (SIM and BSR) and I have a question about "who's in command" per se.

The pilot is always in command or has final authority correct (Part 91.3)? Where the hierarchy go from there? An instructor or DZ staff member or the person doing the spotting? In the case of an emergency (as a student) it falls to the pilot then instructor/LO correct?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Ron 10]

Each person is resposable for their own saftey....

If I am 1st out and the light comes on...I check the spot.

If I am in the second group....I check the spot.

Third....I check the spot

Fourth....I check the spot...

See a pattern here?

If I don't like the spot..I go around.

If I am first, and give the best spot I can for my group and the whole Aircraft, and the last groups land out...They should have checked the spot. I am not going to land my group out so the last group will land on....I will land on, and they should check the spot.

The big problem here is people don't know HOW to spot....They THINK they do....To many times it is just a "green light go!" mentality...

I always have, and always will check my exit point.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[riggerrob 643]

quote: "I was looking through my stuff (SIM and BSR) and I have a question about "who's in command" per se.

The pilot is always in command or has final authority correct (Part 91.3)? Where the hierarchy go from there? An instructor or DZ staff member or the person doing the spotting? In the case of an emergency (as a student) it falls to the pilot then instructor/LO correct?

[sweeney 0]

I would have done the same. The pilot is not the one getting out. Just because the green light comes on I still look to make sure the spot is good.

[kallend 2,027]

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Each person is resposable for their own saftey....

If I am 1st out and the light comes on...I check the spot.

If I am in the second group....I check the spot.

Third....I check the spot

Fourth....I check the spot...

See a pattern here?

If I don't like the spot..I go around.

If I am first, and give the best spot I can for my group and the whole Aircraft, and the last groups land out...They should have checked the spot. I am not going to land my group out so the last group will land on....I will land on, and they should check the spot.

The big problem here is people don't know HOW to spot....They THINK they do....To many times it is just a "green light go!" mentality...

I always have, and always will check my exit point.

Ron

I guess you don't jump on many big-ways, then. Pretty hard to do a big way if all 100, 200, 300.. people want to check their exit point.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rocketdog 0]

Honestly, i think it's all bullshit.... NO ONE should bitch at you for thinking twice about your own safety & those of others. The instructors & whoever else should thank you for being aware & smart enough to put safety -- not the skydive -- first. I think of it as 1 bad spot vs. 1 dead skydiver... pick the lesser of 2 evils. ROCK ON for not being a dumbass!

**ME**

see the world! http://gorocketdog.blogspot.com

[Jasmin 0]

IF YOUR PLANE HAS WINDOWS (AND A CLEAR OR OPEN DOOR) AND YOU HAVE EYES THAT WORK, USE YOUR BRAIN (or what's left of it ) TO COMBINE THE TWO.
Failing this check the spot before the jump light/bell.
If you're not first, as you check the group before you has cleared (you all do this....right?!) you gain 4 or 5 sec + climbout to check the spot again.
If you really take an interest in your safety whilst skydiving, watch the load before you; if possible, check the run-in in terms of drop point and direction.
I'm usually on my way to the dirtbox at this point...or running for it, but its prettyeasy to draw a line upwind from sports canopies to tandems, students and people dumping high.
I've had enough of this and complaints of how cold it is (its averaging 90-105 daily here [see {global warming my ass]) goodnight, have a good w/e all.

xj

"I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both."

[Ron 10]

Well no, I don't do big ways anymore....I did the Javelin 110, and got invited to the 300 way. But I don't like big ways..I do 4way....

But when I do a large formation still (which is rare) I still look out the window when they open the door. Do I spot from the back? No, but I know about where I am and I trust the person who is spotting MY group, and my group only.

I don't trust the guy who spotted the first group out if I am in another group. He is spotting for his group.

If a guy in my group looks out and says its ok to go, I go. I just don't lemming out the door after the first group.

So maybe I should have said each group should check the spot....But in my case most people mant me to check it since I was on a Demo team in the Army, and they really teach spotting.

But BS aside....EACH JUMPER IS RESPNSABLE FOR HIS OWN SAFTEY!!!! This means looking out the door and making sure you can land on the DZ.

The safest place to land...Is on target.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

Well no, I don't do big ways anymore....I did the Javelin 110, and got invited to the 300 way. But I don't like big ways..I do 4way....

But when I do a large formation still (which is rare) I still look out the window when they open the door. Do I spot from the back? No, but I know about where I am and I trust the person who is spotting MY group, and my group only.

I don't trust the guy who spotted the first group out if I am in another group. He is spotting for his group.

If a guy in my group looks out and says its ok to go, I go. I just don't lemming out the door after the first group.

So maybe I should have said each group should check the spot....But in my case most people mant me to check it since I was on a Demo team in the Army, and they really teach spotting.

But BS aside....EACH JUMPER IS RESPNSABLE FOR HIS OWN SAFTEY!!!! This means looking out the door and making sure you can land on the DZ.

The safest place to land...Is on target.

Ron

NSTIW on this high altitude big-way, dive floating from a DC3 in trail. Big plane, small windows, the guys inside really can't see a thing once lined up. We exited when the floaters went, and they went when a super floater left the base plane.

So, one of the floaters on the base plane fell off on climb out. Our floaters, watching like hawks, think it's the super floater and leave, and everyone else piles out after them, to find ourselves alone at 20,000ft and 4 miles from the DZ. Made for a nice, unexpected, x-country. Fortunately it was summer.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mouth 0]

Do you stop at the door to spot and clear the airspace, or do you go blindly on faith?


Bringing up an incident back in May 2001, but had Michelle or even some of the floaters on the king air checked the airspace for the otter and realized it wasn't where it should have been then maybe she would still be alive.

On the formation loads in Eloy I was VERY nervous about where that other aircraft was supposed to be and where it was when I exited. I looked out the windows and again at exit time for me. I also look for traffic if I'm first out for my group. I admit I'm not a great spotter but I know what the area around my DZ looks like and I look out to make sure I recognize something.

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.

[bbarnhouse 0]

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Do you stop at the door to spot and clear the airspace, or do you go blindly on faith?

I always look for other aircraft. This is just one piece in being responsible for my own safety.

[kopelen 0]

Good example of what might of happened occurred at Skydive Atlanta a couple of years ago. They had a Casa Boogie and the dz has a local airport nearby. Anyway, the load was on jump run and the red light comes on and stays on for a little while, then the light goes out and half the jumpers go. Blind faith I say will get you hurt or killed. FYI the green light never came on and instead the plane was 4 miles downwind !!!! Hence the long red light. The had to make a go around do to incoming traffic!

Remember that genius has limits but stupidity doesn't!!!

[Zenister 0]

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Quote

Do you stop at the door to spot and clear the airspace, or do you go blindly on faith?

I always look for other aircraft. This is just one piece in being responsible for my own safety.

indeed, i can remember one FF group in front of us, backing away from the door with a paniced look on thier faces, took a sec to get that there was another plane right under us unfortunately the 8way RW had just exited fortunately everyone landed safely and the FF groups got a free go around..

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[mouth 0]

I forgot about that one. We managed NOT to be on that load thankfully. Video shows the other plane in sight....scary. The pilots were not happy either if I remember corrrectly. We finished up that boogie out of the otter.

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.

[dreamsville 0]

If I'm looking out the windows, I'll know. Unless it's a DZ with limited outs, I'd probably go anyway and worry about it later. I have left an 8 or 10 way early when I saw we were off. I usually point down and wave before leaving in the rare instances that this happens, certainly not with the Diverdriver and his baseball cap at the wheel.

Harry

I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[bodypilot90 0]

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Unless it's a DZ with limited outs, I'd probably go anyway and worry about it later.

About a year ago we lost a skydiver here do to a off landing. Had he checked the spot he'd still be with us today. I'll check the spot and exit when safe. As for faith in the pilot, I didn't know him. seeing his last 2 loads didn't build my faith in his spotting abilities. I'm not saying he's a bad pilot, maybe not used to the skyvan or the area.

[Tinystiletto 0]

Now this is an interesting thread...lol...
1. If I had been jumping at a DZ for 1 year, nevermind 7, and didn't see anything remotely familiar when I looked out the door, guess what?.....no jumpy.
2. If you need a guarantee that you will NEVER land off, or if you need a guarantee that every spot will be perfect, dont get on an airplane.
3. I dont think many injuries can be blamed on a bad spot. There are a few cases (mostly involving water) where a bad spot is to blame. I believe there is much more to an injury than the spot. The choice of where to land, the choice of which direction to land, the choice of canopy and the pilots ability probably have more to do with a botched landing than the spot.
4. As for the jerk yelling at you in the door, him, him, well you get the picture.

Jazz

[bodypilot90 0]

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2. If you need a guarantee that you will NEVER land off, or if you need a guarantee that every spot will be perfect, dont get on an airplane.
3. I dont think many injuries can be blamed on a bad spot. There are a few cases (mostly involving water) where a bad spot is to blame.

No guarantee, I just like to stack the odds in my favor. The safest place to land is at the dz for the most part. I have seen a lot of injuries from skydivers almost making it back. True good judgment is part of skydiving and I accept personal responsibility in this sport. Part of accepting that responsibility is making sure to the best of my ability that we exit the aircraft at the correct point. Mr Mouth is named in the dz wavier to be excluded from responsibility in case of injury. I bet he would fight to the death if I suggested we take him off the waiver.

let's watch out for each other!