ernokaikkonen 0 #51 January 8, 2003 QuoteIf you stop the dive, fly to the other person, and give him a pull signal, then the cameraman is going to see that. At that point, the jumper is going to wave off and pull like normal. The cameraman will see that, too. He has a good vantage point. I think you're assuming too much. First, you're assuming that the jumper with the problem remembers that there's a cameraman above him. Suppose he's a recent AFF graduate? Second, you're assuming that the cameraman notices the signal. I haven't jumped camera, but assuming that the cameraman notices a hand signal in the midst of a 6-way relative work jump is too much in my opinion. QuoteThat means you're about to pull. If I had a problem with my pin, and I saw someone wave off, I'd probably turn and track - thus compounding my problem. If you manage to track even a little, at least the videographer didn't get a canopy in his face. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #52 January 8, 2003 Quote The sad thing is I have had most of these happen to me. 7. On the normal main you jump, a steering line breaks on opening? on a Velocity at 1.9-1....Cut away...till around 700-800 feet. After that land it. I landed a borrowed Xaos 21-80' loaded 2.44/1 with a toggle stuck in the cat's eye. On my Xaos 21-85'loaded 2.3 I've had 2 openings where a brake came unstowed during opening, spun totally the F##K up and with a rear riser pull was able to stop the spin to level flight and clear it. Landed my 99' Crossfire loaded 1.85/1 on nothing but rear risers just to see how it would be if I had no choice, no problem. Conway 1130 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #53 January 8, 2003 >I think you're assuming too much. First, you're assuming that the > jumper with the problem remembers that there's a cameraman > above him. Even if I forgot there was a cameraman above me I would wave off before pulling. >Suppose he's a recent AFF graduate? If he was a very recent grad I'd agree that would be a problem. I guess it depends on the videographer - videographers who are used to AFF are used to predicting when someone will suddenly deploy. >If you manage to track even a little, at least the videographer didn't >get a canopy in his face. One of the freefall/cameraman collisions I've been involved with (almost killed a friend of mine) occurred on an AFF level I when the cameraman went for the shot and the AFF-JM tracked a little. Cameramen generally aren't directly above the formation, and if they see a problem, most are going to make sure they have some separation. Tracking a little may put you under him. In any case, I've done camera all of about 10 times, so I'm not an expert on what cameramen see (especially cameramen who do not film AFF.) Any cameramen out there with a take on this? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #54 January 8, 2003 Quote>Then, stand there and get dead in anyone's ass who did other than > the pre-declared landing. Look out - he may well say "Dude, I was on the four-way who got out first, and normal pattern here is land into the wind." Your load organizer may not be his load organizer. It is for that reason that we have one individual per plane dictate landing direaction as per guidance from manifest. The two days during the Eloy Holiday Boogie that the Collegiate Nationals were going on led to a complete and utter abortion in the main landing area. I cannot count the times that I stood there with Katie, Derek, and Kelly watching people come at each other head-to-head in that grass. I saw one canopy colision where one jumper turned and flew right under another person (leading to a 'meat wagon' call), and many, many instances of people just not following the leader. It was so unsafe that I recommended that Katie not attempt to jump that day. This after repeated calls by manifest to follow the prescribed landing pattern. This is not rocket science. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #55 January 8, 2003 If the camera flyer is shooting RW, then, other than the exit, he -usually- has a lot of time to look out for crap flapping around that can come loose and ruin his day. ANYTHING that's flapping around; pin covers, pieces of exposed bridle, loose fitting jumpsuits, undone flopping booties -- anything like that is a potential hazard and usually gets -my- attention. I'll come off the top of the formation and off to the side -- by that I mean at least as far as a few feet beyond the closest individual so that if anything does come loose or somebody does have a premature deployment, they'll go right by me. I'd -almost- certainly see an open container and if the group stopped turning points and started giving pull signals I can -almost- guarantee I'd be way the F outta there. THIS is an example of being over the top. If the guy at the bottom of the frame had a premature deployment at that moment the camera flyer (me) would be in serious poop. On the other hand, it would be pretty difficult for somebody in THIS shot to take me out from a premature deployment.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #56 January 8, 2003 I landed a borrowed Xaos 21-80' loaded 2.44/1 with a toggle stuck in the cat's eye. On my Xaos 21-85'loaded 2.3 I've had 2 openings where a brake came unstowed during opening, spun totally the F##K up and with a rear riser pull was able to stop the spin to level flight and clear it. Landed my 99' Crossfire loaded 1.85/1 on nothing but rear risers just to see how it would be if I had no choice, no problem. Conway 1130 Quote You have bigger balls than me..... For me it is not worth risking a broken leg to land the main at that wingload with any real major problem. But I am glad you like it....For me it's C-Ya main hello PD113. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #57 January 8, 2003 QuoteHaving played with main and reserve pilot chutes in an open door, and even outside the door (as an IAD instructor) You have held a reserve pilot chute outside an airplane???? I doubt that one. A reserve pilot chute is designed to inflate.....It it is exposed to air it will inflate. And I bet that you could not stop it. You can't hold it by the apex and have it collapse.... QuotePilot chutes are designed to work under certain parameters (open and "facing" significant wind), and they're relatively benign outside of those parameters. The Vector reserve pilot chute is designed to have enough fource to open and deploy the reserve even sideways.....Call Niklas at RWS and ask him about it. QuoteThey certainly won't be catching much wind stowed between his butt and the back of the cabin Unless it escapes, and then gets launched....then you're fucked. QuoteI know that if a plane takes off with 4 jumpers, it can land with 4 jumpers, but the pilot is used to landing it relatively empty and I don't consider an open container (main or reserve) an emergency that justifies taking him out of his norm I am a pilot.( And I welcome comments from other pilots) If your pilot can't land a Cessna with 4 people in it....he should not be flying. If I were flying...there would be no way in hell I would let you open that door. If I am Pilot in Commmand you would do what I say....Ask your jump pilot what he wants you to do in this case. QuoteOutside of that, an open reserve container in the back of a 182 is simply not a big deal I disagree, and if I were on the plane (as a pilot...you would NOT open the door Period) and as a jumper you and I would have a quick long talk..... In the military we were told to not open a door even if we were in the back of a 141.....and the reserve does not have a pilot chute. But the major factor is this.....If you leave the door closed and land....(Other than making the pilot land with a full plane, which is not an issue. You should not be near Max landing weight if you were able to take off it should land fine. ANY pilot can put a plane back down safe.) Is nothing happens...the guy feels stupid and buys beer. But if you open the door, and the pilot chute gets loose....someone is going to die. and the plane is going to have a large hole in the side where this poor guy was pulled out. Lets have other pilots speak on this one. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #58 January 8, 2003 You should see Eric Butts' video of him chopping a canopy with a broken brake line. He could have easily laned it with rear-risers. Shit, if he was really really worried, he could have landed it in the pond, instead he chopped it. You know what happened? He had a line-over on his reserve and almost died. Think about that for a second. Why should you chop a perfectly inflated canopy that you can still fly?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #59 January 8, 2003 QuoteThink about that for a second. Why should you chop a perfectly inflated canopy that you can still fly? Simply because...Just because you can fly it does not mean you can land it. I don't even want to break a leg. I feel much better going to the reserve than trying to land on rear risers....Thats my choice...I have lived this far making good choices. 9 years 2,500 jumps. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #60 January 8, 2003 QuoteI feel much better going to the reserve than trying to land on rear risers.... Cool, go with what you want. I wanted to put out another side to the equation, so people can educate themselves and make their own decision. Eric almost died that day because he went to his reserve (which is a WHOLE 'nuther story)...--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #61 January 8, 2003 QuoteQuoteHaving played with main and reserve pilot chutes in an open door, and even outside the door (as an IAD instructor) You have held a reserve pilot chute outside an airplane???? No, however I have caught my own reserve pilot chute at the edge of the door while my (tandem) student was hanging out the door...twice. (The problem with that rig has since been fixed, but I don't jump it anymore regardless) Those were both in a 206 w/ cargo door, where the wind would be more likely to "grab" the PC than in the back of a 182. Quote I doubt that one. A reserve pilot chute is designed to inflate.....It it is exposed to air it will inflate. And I bet that you could not stop it. You can't hold it by the apex and have it collapse.... This situation is not hypothetical for me. I have handled reserve pilot chutes inside airplanes with open doors at least 3 times, all of which included the affected parties having body parts outside the plane. Additionally, I can think of at least 2 other times in which I was present when a door was opened with an open reserve container in the plane. Very simply put, it is not difficult to handle...at all. Quote QuotePilot chutes are designed to work under certain parameters (open and "facing" significant wind), and they're relatively benign outside of those parameters. The Vector reserve pilot chute is designed to have enough fource to open and deploy the reserve even sideways.....Call Niklas at RWS and ask him about it. I'll do one better and next jump I make, I'll first hold a reserve PC outside the door (just the PC, no bridle or anything attached) QuoteQuoteThey certainly won't be catching much wind stowed between his butt and the back of the cabin Unless it escapes, and then gets launched....then you're fucked. True. IF it made it out the door, we'd be screwed. In my experience, there's absolutely no reason to believe it would make it out the door. QuoteQuoteI know that if a plane takes off with 4 jumpers, it can land with 4 jumpers, but the pilot is used to landing it relatively empty and I don't consider an open container (main or reserve) an emergency that justifies taking him out of his norm I am a pilot.( And I welcome comments from other pilots) If your pilot can't land a Cessna with 4 people in it....he should not be flying. If I were flying...there would be no way in hell I would let you open that door. If I am Pilot in Commmand you would do what I say....Ask your jump pilot what he wants you to do in this case. I agree. The pilot is the boss and what he says go. Our pilots, who've seen these pilot chutes in the cabin with the doors open, have no qualms about letting folks out. They are perfectly capable of landing with a full load. They just agree that there's no reason to in this situation. Yes, I communicate with the pilot, and yes, I guess I'd ride the plane down if you were the pilot. QuoteQuoteOutside of that, an open reserve container in the back of a 182 is simply not a big deal I disagree, and if I were on the plane (as a pilot...you would NOT open the door Period) and as a jumper you and I would have a quick long talk..... If you were on the plane and freaking out about opening the door, I'd first offer to let you be the one who opens it and spots (thus able to get out should something bad happen). If that didn't work, I'd concede and we'd ride the plane down. It's simply not a big enough deal to raise a fuss over either way. QuoteIn the military we were told to not open a door even if we were in the back of a 141.....and the reserve does not have a pilot chute. But the major factor is this.....If you leave the door closed and land....(Other than making the pilot land with a full plane, which is not an issue. You should not be near Max landing weight if you were able to take off it should land fine. ANY pilot can put a plane back down safe.) Is nothing happens...the guy feels stupid and buys beer. But if you open the door, and the pilot chute gets loose....someone is going to die. and the plane is going to have a large hole in the side where this poor guy was pulled out. Lets have other pilots speak on this one. Ron As for the military example, we all know about "military intelligence", and yes, as a vet, I've seen it first hand. As for the risk trade-off you mention, it's just like hookturns (though lower), or skydiving in general. Compare it to a group of 4 first jump students. 3 buddies get in the plane, one opts out after learning of all the possible malfunctions. He might feel silly later and have to buy his buddies beers, but there's zero chance he'll die skydiving today. On jumprun, 1 more changes his mind. He rides the plane down and buys his buddies beers later. Two jump. They realize there's a possibility they could die doing this, but they consider it remote enough to be worth the risk. We don't chastise them for taking that risk when they could have backed out and just bought beers later do we? Having some experience with reserve PC's in open aircraft cabins, I consider the possibility of one getting out and destroying the aircraft considerably more remote than the possibility of a mal, and probably less likely than a lineover on a reserve on the same jump. They are as easy to hang onto in the airplane as they are standing on the ground. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luminous 0 #62 January 8, 2003 1) Not going to happen. 2) Land to the south (1st canopy down rule) 3) Wave off video dude and pull pilot chute. 4) This varies with breakoff altitude. given 3500ft breakoff I would probably track less and "begin my deployment sequence by 2000ft". Most video dudes I jump with would have pulled at breakoff altitude regardless if the team is still turning points. 5)point, yell, wave, try to get their attention or someone's close to them attention. 6)Same as #5 7) Rear risers. 8) Attempt to discreetly notify him of the fact. If unable to do it discreetly then scream it at him/her. 9)Yell "Pilot chute out!" and keep the friggin door closed. 10)Probably a flat as possible turn to the (definitly) right and then flaring to land. Verify other person is OK and if so, chewing their ass out for landing in the wrong direction, after I make sure his mother's not hanging around somewhere. What do I win?BSBD Larry 'In an insane society a sane person seems insane.' Mr. Spock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #63 January 8, 2003 QuoteYou should see Eric Butts' video of him chopping a canopy with a broken brake line. He could have easily laned it with rear-risers. You know this how? Do you have lots of experience landing canopies loaded at greater than 2:1 on rear risers? It's easy to be the Monday morning quarterback, but until you're faced with the decision of weather or not to land an extremely loaded canopy under less than ideal conditions you can't really speculate as to what is and isn't easy. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #64 January 8, 2003 He's one of Atair's factory pilots, he has landed using rear-risers before, that is where that judgement comes from, knowing that he's a bad-ass canopy pilot. Eric Butts himself said he should have landed with the rear-risers after it happened. So, yeah, I'm arm-chair quarterbacking what he said. It may not be close, but I've landed my Heatwave, loaded at a bit under 1.7:1 with the rear-risers before. I slid in, but it was still a safe landing, so that's the closest I've *personally* been.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #65 January 8, 2003 >It's easy to be the Monday morning quarterback, but until you're > faced with the decision of weather or not to land an extremely > loaded canopy under less than ideal conditions you can't really > speculate as to what is and isn't easy. Agreed, which is one good reason to try it under absolutely perfect conditions first. If you've landed a 2:1 canopy on rear risers in a strong, steady wind over soft ground, you'll have a _much_ better idea if you can land it under not so ideal conditions when a line breaks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #66 January 9, 2003 QuoteYou should see Eric Butts' video ...... Yes, everyone should see that video. It's horrific. QuoteYou know this how? Do you have lots of experience landing canopies loaded at greater than 2:1 on rear risers? Actually, Eric has landed mains at over 3:1 (original Onyx prototype) with only the rear risers, so yes, he would have been much better off. The poster was making a specific example. I would also not hesitate to land my 2.34 loaded main on rears, but I fall into that rarified catagory of people who do this on a regular basis. QuoteIt's easy to be the Monday morning quarterback, but until you're faced with the decision of weather or not to land an extremely loaded canopy under less than ideal conditions you can't really speculate as to what is and isn't easy. It's not easy, but it's certainly something that quite a few practiced people are capable of. I am, of course, not saying that everyone should start using this as their personal SOP; only that for some, it's a more than viable option. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #67 January 9, 2003 Quote1. You lose altitude awareness, look down and see massive ground-rush (sub 1000 feet AGL)? say "fuck" and pull my reserve Pull first, then say "fuck". I get ground rush as soon as I leave the plane. If I'm under 1000 and haven't pulled, its been a really crappy CRW dive. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #68 January 9, 2003 >I get ground rush as soon as I leave the plane. If I'm under 1000 and haven't pulled, its been a really crappy CRW dive. Whats the delay? 3 seconds from any altitude Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #69 January 9, 2003 1. You lose altitude awareness, look down and see massive ground-rush (sub 1000 feet AGL)? How about wave at the cameras in the spectator area, then dump my main??? 4. You are on a 4-way RW dive and realize that the 4-way is 500 feet below the planned break-off altitude. Do you track for the same amount of altitude and pull 500 feet low?, or track less and pull on time? Is there a minimum break-off altitude when you got a hot four-way going??? 9. In a Cessna 182 on jump run, you will be the person spotting and just before you open the door you see the jumper in the back of the airplane push their reserve pin out of the loop, firing their reserve pilot chute into the back of the airplane? How about having him lie on his stomach, pulling out your pullup cord (or cords) and closing it back up for him?? Not easy with a full load, but if you've dropped a couple of singles off already, there's room. Just some ideas from the '80's... SkypuppyIf some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
