ripcord 0 #1 July 22, 2001 Does anyone know the stats on Main malfunction and cutaways? How many jumps on average until a cutaway? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #2 July 22, 2001 The number I used to hear tossed around was 600-ish... which means I'm either above or below average (not sure which...) since I've gone almost 800 so far without (knock knock knock) ever having to chop anything.pull and flare,lisa----I am a nobody. Nobody's perfect. Therefore, I am perfect! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #3 July 22, 2001 Hey, Skybytch - Uh, I guess that makes me (like, waaaaaaayyyyyyyy) below average??? lol at me....ciel bleu-Michele Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #4 July 22, 2001 QuoteUh, I guess that makes me (like, waaaaaaayyyyyyyy) below average???Nah. You've just got about 600 jumps or so before you have to do it again. ------------Blue Skies!Zennie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #5 July 22, 2001 Hey, ZenmeisterMay sound kida loopy (it is me, after all), but evey time I jump I expect to use my reserve. And then, when I don't have to, I consider that a good day. This began after the cut away, five whole jumps ago. I wonder if this is just a phase or something....(Listen to her talk, all of eight jumps under her feet...)ciel bleu-Michele Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #6 July 22, 2001 Quote Does anyone know the stats on Main malfunction and cutaways? How many jumps on average until a cutaway? I wouldn't count on the 'stats'.. A friend of mine had over 2500 jumps before his first cutaway.. He always has packed for himself.. I, on the other hand, had 2 in my first 50 jumps.. Both mals were packed by packers.. Seeing a trend here?I am very meticulous in my packing.. My pack jobs may not look great - but I make sure everything is in the proper place.. If you always hand your rig to a packer, you instantly increase your risk of having a mal.. Who is going to take better care packing your main than you? Plus, as Spectre230 has pointed out, most packers are not riggers.. How prone you are to malfunctions depends on you.. Your packing habits, your canopy choice, your body position on deployment, etc..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingMarc 0 #7 July 22, 2001 Hey Michele, so, that means statistically, we've got nothing to worry about for a long time, right? Blue Skies and Good Canopies,Marc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #8 July 22, 2001 Please God I hope you're right.....ciel bleu-Michele Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #9 July 22, 2001 I have seen it go both ways on this. as michele can attest you can have it on your AFF jumps or you can be like one of my skydive U coached and be going on 5000 jumps with out a single cutaway(she had a total mal once). It also depends on whether you are packing or someone else is packing for you. MarcA-38578 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #10 July 22, 2001 QuoteIt also depends on whether you are packing or someone else is packing for you. Now this would be an interesting statistic. What I am about to say is not meant to slam packers in any way, but I would really like to see what the mal/cutaway ratio is for people who generally use packers as opposed to those who pack for themselves.------------Blue Skies!Zennie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #11 July 22, 2001 QuoteMay sound kida loopy (it is me, after all), but evey time I jump I expect to use my reserveNot loopy at all. This is a very good mindset to have.Anticipate/expect the worst and you are prepared for it.------------Blue Skies!Zennie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #12 July 22, 2001 QuoteI would really like to see what the mal/cutaway ratio is for people who generally use packers as opposed to those who pack for themselvesWell... I used to pack for a living. In over 5 years of packing student, tandem and sport rigs, I packed only one that was cutaway... and imho that one was NOT caused by packing error. It was tension knots that held the slider up - on a 500 sq. ft. tandem canopy with less than 300lbs. under it and a visiting TM who was known for chopping on a regular basis. Up to that point the small dz I was at had gone over a year without a tandem or student cutaway, and the sport jumpers packed their own mals. I don't pack anymore, even for myself, because #1 my back can't take it and #2 $5 is NOT too much to pay! I choose my packers well though; my favorite packer has packed thousands and thousands of sport rigs without any malfunctions. And like Michele, I am ready to chop on every skydive, regardless of who packed for me.pull and flare,lisa----I am a nobody. Nobody's perfect. Therefore, I am perfect! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #13 July 22, 2001 Like I said, I wasn't dissing packers, but most of the people I know who have gone hundreds of jumps without cutting away seem to be folks who pack their own.BTW. I'm packing my own now. Not out of dissatisfaction with my packers, but just because I've gotten to a point where I have a system and I like how my pack jobs open. But man do my shoulders hurt the next day! Maybe some day I'll get to where I can do it in less than 30 minutes. ------------Blue Skies!Zennie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallinWoman 1 #14 July 23, 2001 I agree with two opinions in this thread.I think if you want to know how it will open and that it will open... pack for yourself. There are several newbie jumpers at my dz who refuse to pack for themselves and that scares me!!!I also think that you shoud expect or at least prepare for a malfunction every jump. That way if it happens, it is not a surprize, and if is doesn't, what a relief!!blue skies,Anne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DZBone 0 #15 July 23, 2001 OK, mini statistics lesson here.Mind you, I'm not an expert, but this I do know...You can't say "oh, I had a mal, now I won't have one for 600 jumps". Nor can you say "I haven't had a mal in 100,000 jumps, I'm due!".Every jump has the exact same odds of including a malfunction, no matter what has happened previously, or what might happen in the future. Note I am speaking in pure terms here, obviously the packing, weather, body position, etc. change the odds drastically. In fact, there is nothing about the jump other than real, physical factors that will cause you to have a malfunction.Think of it in terms of coin tosses. If you happen to flip a perfectly-balanced coin several times in a row, and have gotten heads each time (highly unlikely), what are the chances you will get tails the next time? The answer is 50/50! The coin doesn't "know" that the previous flips were all heads, there is no "statistical pressure" building up that will force the molecules in the coin to move in a certain way to make the coin land heads-down. (aside: the apparent paradox here is solved by understanding what the "events" are - one flip is different than a series of flips - getting heads five times in a row is highly unlikely, but any one flip always has the same odds).OK, so in malfunction terms, there is no "statistical pressure" building up for the lucky 10,000-jump skydiver, nor is there any released for Michele, or someone who just had a mal on their last jump. The only factors are environmental, usually packing and body position. Statistics can't cause or prevent the malfunction, there are no inherent reasons for having one.I would guess that having a malfunction probably lowers the odds of having another soon, as it will cause you to review the factors that led to it and correct them. Unless you blow it off, then it will increase the odds, as the same factors will exist on subsequent jumps. Live and learn and live!Phew. Needed the coffee to make the late drive home, but this is the unintended side effect. Sorry.Carl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #17 July 23, 2001 QuoteThere are several newbie jumpers at my dz who refuse to pack for themselves and that scares me!!!Me too Anne! You learn so much about the equipment when you learn to pack. I choose to pay packers, but I wouldn't recommend packers to any novice jumper for just that reason. imho every jumper should know how to pack their main, do a complete line check on any canopy, swap out mains (on risers or not) and be capable of doing a basic inspection on the main and the harness/container system. If there's anyone here who is off student status and can't do of all the above, grab a rigger or instructor and learn how! Not only will you learn some things about your gear, you could also be saving yourself some coin. Riggers charge a lot to hook up a new main and inspecting your own equipment on a regular basis can mean the difference between a small rip that is easily patched and a blown-out cell that needs to be chopped...pull and flare,lisa----I am a nobody. Nobody's perfect. Therefore, I am perfect! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #18 July 23, 2001 Lisa, I know how to swap out a main(with risers and without) but is it legal per the FAA. I thought a rigger was supposed to do that part(with out risers that is). any way thanks for the info.MarcA-38578 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #19 July 24, 2001 Quote Lisa, I know how to swap out a main(with risers and without) but is it legal per the FAA. I thought a rigger was supposed to do that part(with out risers that is). any way thanks for the info. It's totally legal for any jumper(or non jumper for that matter) to swap mains.. It's not an alteration, and it does not interfere in any way with the proper operation of the reserve.. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #20 July 24, 2001 The FAA doesn't care about your main. Their only interest is the harness/container system and the reserve canopy as these two items make up the "emergency parachute" system. Like Mike said, anyone can swap out a main legally. As far as I know, a non-rigger can also legally patch, repair, and even modify a main canopy. Now whether you would want a non-rigger to do any sewing on your main is another question entirely! pull and flare,lisa----I am a nobody. Nobody's perfect. Therefore, I am perfect! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #21 July 24, 2001 Thank you guys, as usualy you are always there to answer questions. good to see you again this weekend mike, sorry I couldn't jump. MarcA-38578 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingMarc 0 #22 July 24, 2001 QuoteOK, mini statistics lesson here.I know, I was kidding... Actually I've been much much more thorough on my gear checks since the cutaway, especially on the reserve pins and 3-rings... I thought I was thorough before, but now it's become more like a paranoia... I've always believed a little healthy paranoia is a good thing, though...Marc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #24 July 25, 2001 Quote From what I remember from rigging school anyone can can assemble a main but only a rigger can patch one.You would be better off if you had a rigger put it together for you. Well, I know I can legally assemble a main, but I have no idea if I can legally patch a main.. I sure as hell wouldn't try - the buttons I sew back on shirts after they fall off don't stay on very long, I'm sure a patch wouldn't either.. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloud9 0 #25 July 25, 2001 QuoteThe mal rate I have heard of is 0.3% or 1 in 333 activations will result in a malfunction. This is the stat the USPA uses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
