Correct landing direction???

[steve1 5]

Every big drop zone that I've been to, the first guy down determines landing direction for the entire load. Several weeks ago, at the Lost Prairie Boogie, I was on an otter load and was setting up for landing. There were at least two others ahead of me who landed slightly off the wind line. Several seconds later the wind had changed again and I figured I had to do almost a down wind landing to land the same direction as the others, but I figured I had to land that way because they had. Actually it was kind of a running standup, but as soon as I was about flare for landing, here comes this guy with a pocket rocket sized canopy zipping right past me going the opposite direction. On landing he starts hollering "what the f... are you doing" at the top of his lungs. So naturally I hollered back that I followed the first guys in, and what the hell were you doing. Things were getting heated real fast, and luckily things calmed down, because I know for a fact I'm not as rough and tough as I once was. But at any rate, who was in the wrong here??? At a boogie the size of Lost Prairie shouldn't the first guy down set the landing pattern. I heard Mad John comment to our 20 way group that the wind sock determines direction for landing, not the first guy down, at Lost Prairie. And I know he's concerned about safety. Maybe he was joking. How many times does the wind change in a matter of seconds. It might change a lot before an entire Otter load can get down. In my mind the first ones down should determine the landing pattern. Any input on this one??? I'm just trying to keep from getting beat up next time or killed in a landing collision.......Steve1

[johnny1488 1]

There is no real correct action.

The only right thing to do is discuss the situation before every load takes off. If it's first person then its first person(I personally hate this one, it never really works). If its a direction and someone lands in a different one, its up to the jumper to decide whats right. Do whatever doesnt kill people.

There is no reason to change the direction 10 degrees one way or the other for the wind, 95% of the reasons jumpers need to land into the wind is in their heads. Be the vocal person in the loading area. People might think you're a dick for a bit, but you will show yourself as a leader and a safe jumper. Others will take notice.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[bbarnhouse 0]

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If its a direction and someone lands in a different one, its up to the jumper to decide whats right. Do whatever doesnt kill people.

Having canopies landing in two directions IS what kills people!

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If it's first person then its first person(I personally hate this one, it never really works)

It doesn't? Seems to me it has been working just fine at places like Perris and Eloy for several years now.
First person down sets the pattern. If you don't like the pattern you are welcome to land off.

[johnny1488 1]

Not that it doesnt work but I have seen someone set the direction. Then have the second person not take notice ( or land at almost the same time with the direction they thought was right) land in another direction, then have ten people follow the first person, and ten follow the second (the first one they saw.)

And if you look down and see 2 canopies going in 2 different directions, which way do you land?

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[bbarnhouse 0]

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Then have the second person not take notice

If this is the case, maybe bowling is a better option.

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And if you look down and see 2 canopies going in 2 different directions, which way do you land?

I am going to land in the obvious place no question about it, which is OFF. Most injuries in this sport happen due to other people's negligence. I would rather walk 5 miles than crawl 5 feet.

[diverdriver 5]

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I am going to land in the obvious place no question about it, which is OFF. Most injuries in this sport happen due to other people's negligence. I would rather walk 5 miles than crawl 5 feet.

EXACTLY!!!....It takes two to collide but only one to avoid.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[johnny1488 1]

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If this is the case, maybe bowling is a better option.

It probably is but I have been dealing with the reality that it does happen. I have found(and this is only after working with other jumpers at one particular dz) that the jumpers on our load decide. If they want to follow the first person than we all agree on it. If we sat a pattern than we follow it. Not everyone is as concerned with safety as they should be. If I need to shove it down someones throat so they dont kill me or my friends than I will. I am not trying to argue with you either, but shit hits the fan sometimes. Landing off isnt an option when you are commited and it seems everyone is trying to kill you.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[sundevil777 102]

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Not that it doesnt work but I have seen someone set the direction. Then have the second person not take notice ( or land at almost the same time with the direction they thought was right) land in another direction, then have ten people follow the first person, and ten follow the second (the first one they saw.)

And if you look down and see 2 canopies going in 2 different directions, which way do you land?

Exactly! In my opinion the logic of "follow the first" is so flawed. I could not find my post from months ago where I explained my undeniable reasoning. Just be assured that my logic was flawless, I don't have the energy to try to recreate a perfect argument.

I like airports that have tetrahedrons.

The last 2 times at Eloy, the landing direction was announced while on the ground.

If I ever had a problem with the 'house rules', I would make darn sure that I was all by myself.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[cwn 0]

There are couple of problems with letting the first person down set the landing direction. Unless the first person to land is well below everyone else jumpers that are already flying their landing pattern may not be able to safely change the landing direction they setup for. Also what if the first couple of people land at about the same time but in different directions.

If the winds are light and variable I think it is much safer to have the LO set a land direction before people board the plane. Just before jump run the LO should have the pilot radio the DZ and ask what the ground winds are doing. If the winds have changed the LO can set a new landing direction.

[diverdriver 5]

We must accept that we are in a fluid dynamic. Flying is ever changing. We can set rules. We can set patterns. But we must always keep our head on a swivel and leave an out. You can always find a place to land away from the main crowd. Land safe not close. Always have a plan. But be ready to do the safe thing. If you know people are landing in one direction then I would follow it. Even if it is different from what you talked about. If everyone is going the same direction then you can't collide. So, have a plan. Try to fly the plan. But if you see a bad situation developing then use the alternate. If you can't use the alternate then do what you have to save your life and get ready to talk about it later.

And when someone starts yelling at you "kill 'em with kindness". It usually deflates them and you can get at the route of the problem.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[johnny1488 1]

Not that this is bad but I found this is flawed too. We are jumpers and we should be able to take care of ourselves.

If the winds are l/v then landing into them probably doesnt matter. Answer- set a direction.

If the winds are stiff they probably wont change that much. Answer -set a direction

If they do shift who doesnt like a good down winder? Let me rephrase that. Who cant survive a good down winder. Answer - set a direction

I think it is easy and gives the jumpers a free second to think about the 1000 other things that can and will go wrong with the next 180 seconds.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[johnny1488 1]

And that is very true. If the plan falls to shit, get ready to think on your feet (or off them, as the case may be) and do your best to make the situation as safe as it can be. There is no reason we cant survive every jump.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[diverdriver 5]

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There are couple of problems with letting the first person down set the landing direction. Unless the first person to land is well below everyone else jumpers that are already flying their landing pattern may not be able to safely change the landing direction they setup for. Also what if the first couple of people land at about the same time but in different directions.

If the winds are light and variable I think it is much safer to have the LO set a land direction before people board the plane. Just before jump run the LO should have the pilot radio the DZ and ask what the ground winds are doing. If the winds have changed the LO can set a new landing direction.

Part I agee with....part I don't. You should be following the first person down. Not wait until the first person is down to decide your landing direction. Just look around. Is anyone lower than you? If yes then enter the pattern orderly (right or left hand pattern, should have been decided before takeoff too). Now, if you see 10 canopies and 5 are setting up for opposite directions patterns I'll opt out and go away from all of them. Or at least try to.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[bbarnhouse 0]

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It probably is but I have been dealing with the reality that it does happen

Yes it does happen.

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Not everyone is as concerned with safety as they should be.

Truly unfortunate.

I don't find you to be argumentative, just offering from your own experiences.
I live on a major DZ that puts out well over 140k jumps each year. I have seen it all. What I am trying to convey is that first person down does indeed work.
You asked me a question, I answered it. We are fortunate to have two landing areas. The North area is restricted to East/West or West/East only no matter what the wind direction with the first person down setting the pattern.
In the South area the first person sets the pattern into the wind and everyone else follows.
It is true that we have many outs here unlike many smaller drop zones. The landing pattern rules here are enforced and don't change.
BB

[cwn 0]

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You should be following the first person down. Not wait until the first person is down to decide your landing direction. Just look around.

What if you're following lowest jumper then someone else does a hook turn and lands before them in a different direction then you're setup for. If I'm jumping at a busy DZ and alternate landing areas are available I'll use them. When I've gone to the WFFC I stay well away from the main landing area near the loading tents, it's just not worth the risk landing in that zoo. Unfortunately not all DZ are luckily enough to have good alternate landing areas.

[johnny1488 1]

Thats why when we decide to follow the first person, we look to see who the first person will probably be. The problem I have with that (at my dz) is no one person is landing really ahead of anyone else. Plus picking a direction gives everyone more time to fly into a lefthand pattern (or whatever is standard at your particular dz).

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[billvon 2,991]

> There is no real correct action.

The correct action is to have everyone land in the same direction. The only issue from there is how to make that happen. "First person sets direction" can work if the first person is even halfway competent. "Tetrahedron sets direction" works even better if you have someone on the ground to set the tetrahedron. That is often done at demos with an arrow to take the guesswork out of approaches.

[billvon 2,991]

> There are couple of problems with letting the first person down set the
> landing direction. Unless the first person to land is well below everyone
> else jumpers that are already flying their landing pattern may not be
>able to safely change the landing direction they setup for.

Then they land away from the main landing area. If they can't do that they shouldn't be landing with the pack anyway.

>Also what if the first couple of people land at about the same time but
> in different directions.

Then everyone else lands out and you have a little talk with the second guy down.

[bbarnhouse 0]

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The correct action is to have everyone land in the same direction. The only issue from there is how to make that happen. "First person sets direction" can work if the first person is even halfway competent. "Tetrahedron sets direction" works even better if you have someone on the ground to set the tetrahedron. That is often done at demos with an arrow to take the guesswork out of approaches.

Thanks Bill. Next time I will just anchor down the tetrahedron

[cwn 0]

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Then everyone else lands out and you have a little talk with the second guy down.

At many DZs there are no alternate landing areas you can get to if you're at 500feet (or even 1500 feet in some cases) when this happens.

I've seen a number of cases where the second guy landed 5 seconds after the first one but the second guy was the lowest jumper until about 10 seconds before they landed.

Having the first person down set the landing direction may work at some DZs or on some loads. However for it to work there needs to be someone who's clearly going to be landing first that's flying a predicable landing pattern or the DZ is in a wide open area with lots of easy outs

[freeflydrew 0]

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I don't find you to be argumentative, just offering from your own experiences.
I live on a major DZ that puts out well over 140k jumps each year. I have seen it all. What I am trying to convey is that first person down does indeed work.
You asked me a question, I answered it. We are fortunate to have two landing areas. The North area is restricted to East/West or West/East only no matter what the wind direction with the first person down setting the pattern.
In the South area the first person sets the pattern into the wind and everyone else follows.
It is true that we have many outs here unlike many smaller drop zones. The landing pattern rules here are enforced and don't change.
BB

The day I made my first jump in Eloy was the day the guy hit the bleachers... (March 2000) AKA, the day they made the east to west rule.

Eloy has a much higher standard of canopy flying than at most dz's. Look at all the teams... Look at Pat and Brian, look at the video guys, look at the AFF instructors. I haven't been to Perris, but I know that this sort of DZ dynamic is not really common... Eloy is a very unique and lucky place and that's why we all keep on going back (besides those sunny days of course).

When you land at Eloy, you have to land straight west or straight east... If you don't, you will be told why you must, and if you still don't, you will be told to go to the alternate landing area. I know because it once happened to me.

Not all DZ's are lucky to have the facilities, staff, and clientell that Eloy has...

Imagine that you were at a DZ with very few outs, very small landing area, and very little experience across the board for canopy pilots... You just don't see the same heads up, disciplined, and experienced level of flying... you just don't.

Here's my response to the initial question...
(I heard Max say this a while back and completely agree with him)
It is far more important that we all land in the same direction than if we individually land into the wind.
Hopefully by this time in our skydiving careers we can all figure out when the winds are strong enough that we must land into them, and when they're light enough that it really doesn't matter, and choose the direction and set the pattern accordingly.

I personally always land the mainstream direction, unless I'm last down and want to deviate.

Everyone Go Skydiving and land in the same direction!
-drew

[LouDiamond 1]

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You just don't see the same heads up, disciplined, and experienced level of flying... you just don't.

Agreed. But that also goes with out saying that education is the key to solving this problem. Experienced, heads up canopy pilots need to take the low timers, the undisciplined pilots and the people who just don't seem to have a clue aside and give them a clue. Some times people just need a boot in the ass to get the idea and then again we've all met the ones who you just can't reach.

I agree with your Take on Eloy/Perris but that also goes without saying that each year thousands of people go to those DZ's and manage to land according to the traffic pattern, so it does work regardless of the local talent. There is no perfect solution to this problem. The low man setting the pattern is the best thing to order that we can hope for until we learn how to control the weather. We also know it's not a perfect solution. What people need to realize is that keeping your head on a swivel is a MUST and if it looks like chaos in the pattern then maybe it isn't a good time to throw that 270 hook turn. I see more people take the easy wrong than the hard right when it comes to being responsible in the sky under canopy when there is no set pattern.

Bottom line is follow the DZ rules and or follow the low man as best as possible. If in doubt, space it out and give yourself and others some room and allow for the craziness to subside before you put yourself into the problem.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[kallend 2,027]

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You just don't see the same heads up, disciplined, and experienced level of flying... you just don't.

Agreed. But that also goes with out saying that education is the key to solving this problem. Experienced, heads up canopy pilots need to take the low timers, the undisciplined pilots and the people who just don't seem to have a clue aside and give them a clue. Some times people just need a boot in the ass to get the idea and then again we've all met the ones who you just can't reach.

I agree with your Take on Eloy/Perris but that also goes without saying that each year thousands of people go to those DZ's and manage to land according to the traffic pattern, so it does work regardless of the local talent. There is no perfect solution to this problem. The low man setting the pattern is the best thing to order that we can hope for until we learn how to control the weather. We also know it's not a perfect solution. What people need to realize is that keeping your head on a swivel is a MUST and if it looks like chaos in the pattern then maybe it isn't a good time to throw that 270 hook turn. I see more people take the easy wrong than the hard right when it comes to being responsible in the sky under canopy when there is no set pattern.

Bottom line is follow the DZ rules and or follow the low man as best as possible. If in doubt, space it out and give yourself and others some room and allow for the craziness to subside before you put yourself into the problem.

While "follow the first down" is the de-facto rule, I have to question its value (except when the wind is light/variable, when it makes sense). If the first down is a moron who misreads the wind, or an asshole who just wants to downwind it for kicks, he/she puts the rest of the load at increased risk. Yes - we should all be prepared to land downwind if necessary, but there is no doubt that the likelihood of injury is higher on a downwind landing.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[LouDiamond 1]

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If the first down is a moron who misreads the wind, or an asshole who just wants to downwind it for kicks, he/she puts the rest of the load at increased risk.

OK, this falls into the Heads up portion. For those who didn't know or no one told you. You are responsible for your life while skydiving. IF someone does something stupid as mentioned above and is the first down it's up to you to make the right decission and save your life. I'm sure everyone else in the sky will be happy if your the person who takes the safe landing approach even if the jerk under the pocket rocket decides to take a radical one. This goes back to the hard right over the easy wrong. I doubt anyone on the load will be complaining if you take the safe landing approach. Chances are they will all follow you if your the 2nd man down while wildman downwinds into the next county. You can make this hard and debate it all day, like I said, there is no perfect solution but safety will always be the best choice.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[mr2mk1g 10]

Why are landing areas always right next to the spectator area / close to the buildings? Obviously theres not wanting to walk and we all enjoy watching landings (they're great for wuffo's to watch)

The problem is that with such small experianced landing areas, there is an awfull lot of congestion. And everyone goes for it or they look like a student and/or has to walk. The other thing is with a ready audience the wannabe skygods are far more tempted try and swoop in and break stuff.

Why not make the landing area closest to the buildings "Tandems Only" (still allow wufos to see their loved ones) - or hell just ban landing there. Then set up a much bigger landing area a little further away. There would therefore be far less congestion and much less incentive for swoops when the pilot is not yet competant.

I know people like showing off and no one likes a walk in kit, but this is peoples lives, and if doing something like that will save lives/injury why not??