Cypress fire

[PhreeZone 20]

>You're not suggesting that people are screaming through 700' looking at their alti and just thinking "let's wait for the Cypres to save me

From the Cypres save list, Then the worst of them all:

July 1994:
Dortmund, Germany - Expert CYPRES: A skydiver was unable to pull her hand deploy. At about 2000 ft. she made the decision to deploy the
reserve but in spite of using both hands was unable to do so. CYPRES worked as expected and activated her reserve. She later said she fully
trusted CYPRES and had waited "patiently" until the appropriate altitude was reached.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

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You're not suggesting that people are screaming through 700' looking at their alti and just thinking "let's wait for the Cypres to save me"

It has happened............

Hook

[arlo 0]

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I have seen a girl from a Deland 4way team have a cypress fire once. She didnt miss the next load. She was extremely shaken up and it taught her a good lesson, as a matter of fact she had the same problem the next day (Total due to mis-routed pull out) and handled it perfectly. With what happened she actually just got beat by her cypress, so even if she didnt have one she would have been fine.

I have to disagree. She had a total. She didn't handle it in time. (an aside: where is your hard deck??!!) I've had a total mal due to a hard pull. I was in the saddle by 2K. High? to some. I started my deployment sequence at 2.8K. But I have engrained "pull once, pull twice, silver. But for someone to have that happen 2 days in a row and say that she handled it okay? There is nothing okay with having your cypres fire from a total. That means that you took too much time to handle that situation.

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I also watched a visiting Aff instructor (From canada) loose a student when the student had a hard pull and the student had a cypress fire. That one I blame the instructor for,

Ray, again, i disagree STRONGLY. It is absolutely the students fault. You cannot blame an instructor for a student not performing his/her emergency procedures. Why not just do away with the entire instructional course if the student isn't going to be responsible for a malfunction! Oh wait, that's what tandems are for. I'm really surprised to hear you say that you blame the instructor. Why is it always someone else's fault....

...and as far as JB's comments about cranking out points: that is sooooooooooooooo inherently WRONG. There is NO skydive so important that you fucking burn in due to loss of altitude. That is just a bad attitude to have. THINK about what you're saying man. No one wants to see you dead so please listen to the warnings you've been given about skydiving...please.

arlo

edited to add: oh yeah, i misread the poll. I voted "no" because i thought it asked if we have HAD a cypres fire. Strike that vote. I think if i lost altitude awareness to the point of cypres fire, i'd go back to shopping on the weekends and sell the rig. that discounts being knocked out.

[lippy 918]

I've always said, the day I need it is the day I quit jumping. And my biggest fear in this sport is having it fire(fire b/c I need it, that is). I bought a used one that's timed out after next season, not sure if I'll get a new one or not. Probably depends on where I'm at, and where I think I'm going with my skydive career at the end of next season.

I got nuthin

[DZBone 0]

Do you feel the same way about your audible? How many times has it caught you by surprise? Isn't that the same thing?

Or does ground proximity in peripheral vision just make it that much worse?

I started getting surprised by my audible a few times too often, but my reaction was not to quit, but to wake the f*ck up. I drilled and focussed, and straighted up. I would probably do the same if I was surprised by an AAD, only more so.

_________________________________________________
If you hadn't read this, would it have made a sound?

[Ron 10]

I have seen,and heard of people falling right by 1,000 feet.
Some of them have said "I knew my CYPRES would save me."

But the biggest issue I have is how people are more likley to engauge in more dangerous activities because they "Rely" on the CYPRES to prevent them from dying.

I hear it a lot.

"Oh, its OK I have a CYPRES"

A CYPRES and a reserve are very different....

One is a passive aid, the other requires action (either by you or a cool electric box).

I would not jump with out a reserve. I will jump with out a CYPRES.

CYPRES is a small box that can keep you alive if you are knocked out.

Too many people treat it like a security blanket that will protect them if they fuck up, and do something stupid.

That is what I mean by "rely"

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,991]

>Do you feel the same way about your audible? How many times has
>it caught you by surprise? Isn't that the same thing?

I'd say no. An audible is generally set to breakoff; if you're 100 feet off on your altitude at breakoff, no big deal. If you're 2000 feet off your pull altitude (i.e. you're still skydiving at 700 feet) and your cypres fires, that is a big deal.

In any case, I'm an advocate for setting your audible 200-500 feet lower than breakoff, so if you do hear it, you are low but not too low to get out of there safely. That way you don't train yourself to 'skydive until you hear the beep.'

[Ron 10]

I agree with Bill...

If your breakoff is 100 feet off, that is not the end of the world.

If your CYPRES fires, your around 1,000 feet off from your decision Altitude, and 1,300 feet from your deployment Altitude for a "D" license.

100 feet is not much...less than a second, and I doubt that all alti's are that accurate anyway.

1,000 or 1,300 feet IS a much bigger differance.

And the cost of being one second late on breakoff, or 4.5 seconds from impact is quite large.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Rdutch 0]

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I have seen a girl from a Deland 4way team have a cypress fire once. She didnt miss the next load. She was extremely shaken up and it taught her a good lesson, as a matter of fact she had the same problem the next day (Total due to mis-routed pull out) and handled it perfectly. With what happened she actually just got beat by her cypress, so even if she didnt have one she would have been fine.

I have to disagree. She had a total. She didn't handle it in time. (an aside: where is your hard deck??!!)
But for someone to have that happen 2 days in a row and say that she handled it okay? There is nothing okay with having your cypres fire from a total. That means that you took too much time to handle that situation.

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She didn't have 2 cypress fires, she had one, she had a total the next day and handled it perfectly, lesson learned. She did make a mistake and it scared the shit out of her.

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I also watched a visiting Aff instructor (From canada) loose a student when the student had a hard pull and the student had a cypress fire. That one I blame the instructor for,

Ray, again, i disagree STRONGLY. It is absolutely the students fault. You cannot blame an instructor for a student not performing his/her emergency procedures. Why not just do away with the entire instructional course if the student isn't going to be responsible for a malfunction! Oh wait, that's what tandems are for. I'm really surprised to hear you say that you blame the instructor. Why is it always someone else's fault....

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That is where I strongly disagree with you, The one job an AFF instructor has, is to make sure his student deploys, that is why they pull so high, to give him (The instructor) time if something goes wrong. If not why do we have instructors anyway? Any Aff instructor will back this up, When you see your student attempting to pull, you wait until they have line stretch before tracking off, not bailing as soon as you see him reach for his handle. If I remember your instructor is supposed to pull for you, if you dont do it in time, if they didnt there would be a hell of a lot more reserve ride's. Yes the student messed up, but he is a student with 4 jumps. The blame goes to the instructor.
Unless something goes seriously wrong, you should NEVER leave your student.
Why is it always someone elses fault? Its his JOB. That is why we have instructors after all.


That aside, a pilot shute in tow can easily lead to a cypress fire, specially with 4way team's. I have witnessed numerous teams, having a good jump stick it out the few extra seconds to get the last point. Then break off and deploy, lets say 2000ft. (Hard Deck), if you get a pilot chute in tow, (I rode a pc in tow 700+ ft tryig to fix it, which I did). But at 2000 ft that isnt the best thing to do. Ok so now you realise go for silver, but what first? Do you cut away, just in case you pc inflates and opens your main? leave it and just pull your reserve? which can lead to a 2 out at 700ft? Or even worse a simutanious opening causing an entanglement?
Just trying to show that there is a lot of variable's to a cypress fire. Some people should take up golf but anyone is capable of making a mistake.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[Ron 10]

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That is where I strongly disagree with you, The one job an AFF instructor has, is to make sure his student deploys

Ray I have to dissagree on this one.

For anyone who exits an aircraft, student, experianced whoever....

They have the responsability to deploy a parachute.

The instructor is a back up...not to be relyed on...
Exactly like a CYPRES.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[arlo 0]

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That is where I strongly disagree with you, The one job an AFF instructor has, is to make sure his student deploys, that is why they pull so high, to give him (The instructor) time if something goes wrong. If not why do we have instructors anyway? -Any Aff instructor will back this up-

That's a pretty bold statement regarding any AFF instructor...are you sure about that?

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When you see your student attempting to pull, you wait until they have line stretch before tracking off, not bailing as soon as you see him reach for his handle. If I remember your instructor is supposed to pull for you, if you dont do it in time, if they didnt there would be a hell of a lot more reserve ride's. Yes the student messed up, but he is a student with 4 jumps. The blame goes to the instructor.
Unless something goes seriously wrong, you should NEVER leave your student.

I have a question: if your AFF instructor was incapacitated (i.e., knocked out, had a heart attack, playing with himself, whatever) for whatever reason, should the student not pull because the instructor isn't there to do it for them? It is the job of the AFF instructor to teach the student the basics of skydiving along with how to handle a small number of malfunctions...and yes, to initiate deployment sequence if the student fails to do so or doesn't do so in a timely manner. But the instructor is not ultimately responsible for the life of the student. The student is ultimately responsible. Is it a good quality to have to give a shit about your student? of course! Did the instructor do his/her job by leaving before PC extraction or ripcord pull? no. But we're not talking about the qualifications of an instructor. We're talking about the ability to save one's own ass. If during the FJC the instructor had failed to teach the student what to do during a malfunction, then THAT would be the instructor's fault. A student can only know how to save their own ass if they were taught how.

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That aside, a pilot shute in tow can easily lead to a cypress fire, specially with 4way team's. I have witnessed numerous teams, having a good jump stick it out the few extra seconds to get the last point. Then break off and deploy, lets say 2000ft. (Hard Deck), if you get a pilot chute in tow, (I rode a pc in tow 700+ ft tryig to fix it, which I did). But at 2000 ft that isnt the best thing to do. Ok so now you realise go for silver, but what first? Do you cut away, just in case you pc inflates and opens your main? leave it and just pull your reserve? which can lead to a 2 out at 700ft? Or even worse a simutanious opening causing an entanglement?
Just trying to show that there is a lot of variable's to a cypress fire. Some people should take up golf but anyone is capable of making a mistake.

Is this in reference to the Canadian girl? If so, you didn't say anything about a PC in tow. You said she had a TOTAL. 2 totally different animals in my opinion. 2 different schools of thought on how to handle it...at least the way I look at it. A total means NOTHING is out...nothing. PC in tow, baglock, each have something out.

Anyhooo, it's good to see some issues brought forth that hopefully will spur some thinking. Ray, if I don't see ya out at the dz before next week, you guys have a great christmas holiday. :) hopefully the weather will stay nice and warm (yeah, it's been in the mid-70s here in Deland ;)...

blues,
arlo

[riddler 0]

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It has happened............

It has happened in Longmont - Jeff has a good story about a new student. That student got Jeff's "bowling" speech

Personally, I work with computers all day and trust them. I would kick myself for losing altitude awareness (especially for THAT long), but wouldn't stop jumping. Maybe after the 5th or 6th time that happened Assuming any DZO would let me jump after that many times ...

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[RevJim 0]

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Yep....like I said before, If your Cypres fires and saves you, youre dead.

This includes me.

Me too.

I'd only keep jumping if I "wasn't there" (i.e. knocked out) when it fired, or if it misfired (in which case I'd begin to reconsider having one on my rig).

I don't have one in either of my rigs, but I'm right there with you Lisa.

If you cannot save your own life, should have been able to (awake, alert, no broken arms, ect.), and the CYPRES does the job, who's to say it might not happen again, and the CYPRES you "depended" on to save your life doesn't work this time.....

Nope, if I can't save myself, I'm done. One way or another.

It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1

[ChileRelleno 0]

No way would I quit!!! Thats what the gizmo is there for...
Hell, I shattered my tib/fib in August and finally got to jumped again this weekend, if broken bones don't stop me then a fired CYPRES sure isn't going to.

ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414
Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868