DexterBase 1 #1 August 18, 2003 #1) Flat packing As soon as a student gets off student status, most likely they will move onto their own gear and start to propack. (Yeah Mantas are big but many students are jumping smaller canopies that can be propacked easily. I can propack a Manta just fine though. Tandems get propacked...) #2) Looking at pull time Somewhere along the line, usually right after graduation (if not sooner) they will be switching to a throwout PC. This makes the need to look at the deployment handle a skill that will not be needed after student status. Aside from that, it makes it very easy for students to roll at deployment time. Which leads me to... #3) Ripcords Why are these still used? I hate springloaded PC's. Too easy for a PC to get trapped in the burble. The student isn't going to use them after they graduate anyway. The common theme here is that students are taught methods that they will not use after student status. Muscle memory is a good thing in the relatively stressful skydiving environment. When you drill a technique over and over, switching methods will confuse and require at least a little re-training. The period immediately after student status is not the place to have to re-learn how to prepare and use your gear. There is already so much else to concentrate on. Plus you're not being as closely watched by more experienced jumpers as you were while a student. Why not practice how you play? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pds 0 #2 August 18, 2003 i concur.namaste, motherfucker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #3 August 18, 2003 Quote#1) Flat packing As soon as a student gets off student status, most likely they will move onto their own gear and start to propack. (Yeah Mantas are big but many students are jumping smaller canopies that can be propacked easily. I can propack a Manta just fine though. Tandems get propacked...) I don't agree...I know people that flat pack stiletto's...John Hoover and Paul Raferty to name a few..And they both can pack faster than me. Flat packing is easy, and it builds confidence in gear to know how to pack it...I agree that most will learn to propack..But I am glad I know how to do both. As it is I Pro my sport rigs, and flat or stack my old demo gear. Quote#2) Looking at pull time Somewhere along the line, usually right after graduation (if not sooner) they will be switching to a throwout PC. This makes the need to look at the deployment handle a skill that will not be needed after student status. Aside from that, it makes it very easy for students to roll at deployment time. Which leads me to... #3) Ripcords Why are these still used? I hate springloaded PC's. Too easy for a PC to get trapped in the burble. The student isn't going to use them after they graduate anyway. agree, and a lot of DZ's don't teach it any more...Here at Zhills we have rigs with throwout BOC's for students."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #4 August 18, 2003 Quote#1) Flat packing As soon as a student gets off student status, most likely they will move onto their own gear and start to propack. (Yeah Mantas are big but many students are jumping smaller canopies that can be propacked easily. I can propack a Manta just fine though. Tandems get propacked...) #2) Looking at pull time Somewhere along the line, usually right after graduation (if not sooner) they will be switching to a throwout PC. This makes the need to look at the deployment handle a skill that will not be needed after student status. Aside from that, it makes it very easy for students to roll at deployment time. Which leads me to... #3) Ripcords Why are these still used? I hate springloaded PC's. Too easy for a PC to get trapped in the burble. The student isn't going to use them after they graduate anyway. The common theme here is that students are taught methods that they will not use after student status. Muscle memory is a good thing in the relatively stressful skydiving environment. When you drill a technique over and over, switching methods will confuse and require at least a little re-training. The period immediately after student status is not the place to have to re-learn how to prepare and use your gear. There is already so much else to concentrate on. Plus you're not being as closely watched by more experienced jumpers as you were while a student. Why not practice how you play? I didn't learn with any of those techniques. Thanks to Roger Nelson, my first (solo) jump was on a 1:1 loaded Sabre 190 with BOC deployment, and which I subsequently learned to pro-pack.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stacy 0 #5 August 18, 2003 I also was never taught any of those methods. Been jumping a throwout PC since jump #1, DJ Mike taught propacking in the initial packing class. GUess I lucked out at Cross Keys. __ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #6 August 18, 2003 I learned on a ripcord, but that DZ has since switched to throwouts only. I made my first jump with a BOC-mounted ripcord, not hip mounted, so the pull procedure is about the same as with a throwout except you don't throw. That makes a lot more sense to me than a hip mounted ripcord. It also puts the ripcord farther from the cutaway handle, preventing it from getting pulled by mistake. But yeah, ripcords need to go. I've had the PC get caught in the burble a couple times which is not such a big deal because we get taught to look over our shoulder at the deploying canopy to clear it. But that's just one more thing to unlearn since it can cause linetwists. I really can't comment on flat packing since I never learned how to do it, but if it makes it easier to understand whats happening as the canopy gets packed, I don't see anything wrong with teaching it that way. I know I had trouble figuring out what was what when learning to propack. If students that flat pack DON'T understand the canopy better, then I don't see the point of teaching it. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyIvan 0 #7 August 18, 2003 I learned with a throw-out since AFF 1, Javelin container, and when it was time to pack, Pro-pack was the method I was taught.__________________________________________ Blue Skies and May the Force be with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #8 August 18, 2003 I went through all of that. Personally for me it didn't take that much to transition to BOC. I never really looked at my ripcord handle, relied on feel. Only missed once, but didn't have any trouble finding it in enough time. I flat packed for about 50 jumps after A licence, then switched to pro pack because people got really annoyed with the amount of space it took to flat pack. Maybe some people would have more trouble transitioning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #9 August 18, 2003 At Raeford we still teach students to flat pack . . . they get trained to PRO pack by the packers later on. We also use Student Javelins with throw-out pilot chutes, which work GREAT! As a result, we no longer train students to "look" at the deployment handle. The pull sequence I teach is wave-wave-arch-relax-reach-throw-check. Works like a charm! Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivejersey 0 #10 August 18, 2003 Are we goning to add Static line courses onto this list? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #11 August 18, 2003 Flat packing - PRO packing was the devil at the little dz I learned at (and there were no zp canopies there either). I learned flat packing. A couple thousand flat packs didn't make it hard to learn how to propack. I don't think it matters either way which packing method a person learns first, as long as they understand what they are doing. Looking at pull time - Partially agree with you here. You should be able to move your head around without affecting your stability, therefore having a student prove that ability could be a good thing. Ripcords - I learned on an 80's vintage student rig. The main ripcord was located near the top of the right main lift web. The SOS handle was located on the left main lift web. When I graduated and bought my gear I had to transition from MLW mounted ripcord to leg mounted throw out and from SOS to a two handle system on one jump. I've always thought that was nuts, and I was very happy to see the dz's new student containers - with hip mounted ripcords and two handles - arrive. My son did his first jump on a throwout, at Perris last year. Yet another example of how Roger Nelson impacted our sport... Why are springloaded pc's still being used? One reason is financial; it will cost a dzo money to switch over to throwouts. Another reason is what's been called the "old timer" mentality in the sport; it's worked for the past X years so why change it? Time will likely change that; as more dz's switch to throwouts for students without excessive problems (or fewer problems than they see using springloaded pc's) the oldtimers will see that throwouts for students are a good idea and can be used safely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #12 August 18, 2003 >#3) Ripcords Why are these still used? I hate springloaded PC's. Too > easy for a PC to get trapped in the burble. The student isn't going > to use them after they graduate anyway. If students use BOC ripcords and are trained to throw them away, there's no difference in training between ripcord and throwout. We did that for a while before converting to straight throwout. Interestingly, when I stared 13 years ago, I learned via a SL program that used throwouts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #13 August 18, 2003 QuoteMy son did his first jump on a throwout, at Perris last year. Yet another example of how Roger Nelson impacted our sport... While I know Roger impacted our sport a lot I don't know if he can claim throw outs for students totally. I know that he did take AFP level 1 students out with throw outs and that caused quite a stir. But when I went through IAD in KC I was taught on a throw out after 3 dummy handle throws. I'm not sure on the heritage of the IAD program and what year it started but I know people were taught with throwouts well before Roger transitioned his rigs. What Roger did do was come up with the breakaway pouch that could be pulled from the left hand side releasing the PC. And I think that aspect is what brought throwout PCs for students into a wider acceptance. Just a tidbit (tm).Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #14 August 18, 2003 My son did his first jump on a throwout, at Perris last year. Yet another example of how Roger Nelson impacted our sport... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hee! Hee! You arrogant Americans think Roger Nelson invented everything. Historically, IAD was invented in Alabama or Georgia back in the mid 1970s, about the same time Bill Booth etal invented throw-out pilotchutes. USPA promptly squashed IAD, the same way they tried to squash AFF, ram-airs for students, etc. IAD would have disappeared completely if Tom MacArthy had not revived it when he tired of static-lines at his school in Ganagoque, Ontario, Canada in 1979. Naturally, all Tom's freefall students began throwing belly-mounted pilotchutes the same year. Other Canadian DZs soon followed Tom's lead. I started dropping IAD students - on MacArthy-built rigs - in Nova Scotia in 1984. Roger Nelson's major contributions seem to be the doubled-ended BOC and convincing USPA officials that students should jump gear similar to what they will buy. The later task was the most difficult. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
richardd 0 #15 August 18, 2003 Im new to this (approx 14 jumps) via S/L RAPS category system. Ive been using ripcords/springloaded PC's and have never been taught to look for the handle. Simply bring my left hand above my head and right hand back to pull the ripcord. All very natural with stability etc. I personally wouldnt be too comfortable having to look for the ripcord. just my experiences. I think we do convert to throwout however. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #16 August 18, 2003 It's pretty naive to think that PRO packing is the answer for everybody; it's not. It's much, much faster to flat (roll) pack a parachute and I refuse to PRO pack anything over 150 square feet. Hell, I roll pack my Sabre2 97 when I am in a real hurry. No, it doesn't open any differently than when I PRO pack it. I never, ever PRO pack tandems and I have never, ever experienced a line-over malfunction on one as a result. I would never consider PRO packing a StarTrac or a ParaFoil either, but have cause to jump them on occasion. You can't arbitrarilly state that every packing method other than PRO packing is obsolete. As to the other points, I agree completely. We use BOC hand deploy pilot chutes on all of our student gear and do not have "look" in the pull sequence. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #17 August 18, 2003 QuoteI personally wouldnt be too comfortable having to look for the ripcord. Ah....What do you think your reserve is? Really, A ripcord is not different that a throwout...You just try not to throw the ripcord. For the record my first parachute that opened with a ripcord was a reserve ride when I had 600 jumps... I learned static line to throwout."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #18 August 18, 2003 Are we goning to add Static line courses onto this list? --->>> AWWWW hell, here we go again!!! static line isnt quite ready for burial just yet, up here in the northwest, the weather is quite unpredictable and low ceilings are common fall-spring. aff students get to sit on the ground and watch the static line students play. Once the student is off the dope rope, it isnt much different from aff with progressively longer delays. (of course initially your on your own) but you work up to two ways with the instructor at around 15-20 sec delay RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #19 August 19, 2003 I agree about the flat packing. I don't even know how to properly do it (I learned to pro-pack on student status) but I know we've had only one student malfunction in all the years I've been at this dz - and that was a spring loaded pilot chute over the nose of a tiny girl (We use BOC now.) I'm definitely a believer in a lower malfunction rate on the flat packs.\ W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,447 #20 August 19, 2003 I agree about flat-packing too. I think it gives a better idea of how the canopy is laid out, and familiarity is always good. I do it on my old main, which has a diaper for deployment. I can take just enough room on the floor to hold the S-folded main -- no more than I take when I plop my psycho-packed Safire. But I get ooh's and aah's and "what the fuck is that" about the diaper Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #21 August 19, 2003 Chad, By not filling out your profile, you make it hard for people to know if you know enough to make such observations. Just a thought!My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #22 August 19, 2003 I had student jumps with all kinda square accuracy gear. I couldnt look on the ripcord on Zenith gears. I couldnt even see on the ground either. Safe landings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #23 August 19, 2003 QuoteMy son did his first jump on a throwout, at Perris last year. Yet another example of how Roger Nelson impacted our sport... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hee! Hee! You arrogant Americans think Roger Nelson invented everything. ........ Roger Nelson's major contributions seem to be the doubled-ended BOC and convincing USPA officials that students should jump gear similar to what they will buy. The later task was the most difficult. Isn't student equipment and training what this thread is all about?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #24 August 20, 2003 But is was invented in America by Americans. Yes we are arrogant and have every right to be.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wrightskyguy 1 #25 August 21, 2003 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hee! Hee! You arrogant Americans think Roger Nelson invented everything. Roger Nelson did in fact, invent everything, except freeflying which we all know was invented by Olav. Just ask him, he'll tell you. John Wright World's most beloved skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
