One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab.

[mjosparky 4]

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Is it our problem,. that manufacturers give ridiculous WL limits, because they said to afraid of legal consequences?

Safe landings

Only someone with 108 jumps or someone who hasn't seen the ball since kickoff would make that statement. Do you think there is any chance that the people who design and manufacture these canopies would know anything about how they will perform. jmo
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Is it our problem,. that manufacturers give ridiculous WL limits, because they said to afraid of legal consequences?

Safe landings

Only someone with 108 jumps or someone who hasn't seen the ball since kickoff would make that statement. Do you think there is any chance that the people who design and manufacture these canopies would know anything about how they will perform. jmo
Sparky

It was the answer to Ron......

Fell free to blame me because of the lack of experience!!!

My weight is 92kg~202 pounds. So its about 222 lbs at door. I was adviced to buy canopy sized 170 as a first canopy. Please check the size chart of Sabre2 @ PD. Its somewhere between Advance and Experienced.

I might able to see that something, somewhere is wrong, cant I????

My instructor told me that PD size chatrs have only safe limits.......legal issues?

Im sure they know how to fly them. But they might put lower limits avoiding further legal problems.
I know in US anyone can be sued for anything.....

[mjosparky 4]

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Why don't you and mojo go read the original posts. Both the DZO and I were on a trip together and not at the DZ. This kid had been slowed down before that weekend. Neither of you know the DZO, me, or our level of trust. I've kept people from jumping at our DZ, but Billy you are full of it, you did not ground anyone! All they had to do was go to another DZ! They can jump there all they want. You did not ground them. You only "think" you did! Wake Up.

You guys are hilarious.

Blues,

J.E.

I take it by mojo you are refering to me. I don't want to read the original post. I was responding to the one were you said no one could be grounded. You don't know me and you don't the level of trust I had with the DZO at the time. But you feel comfortable calling me a liar. You say you were born in 1953 but you still call people Dude. Grow up and get a life. I do not feel the need to defend myself to you. For the record, I was born in 1945 Kid.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[skybytch 273]

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So its about 222 lbs at door. I was adviced to buy canopy sized 170 as a first canopy.

Really? I know the student program is different in Finland than it is in the US; how many jumps on what size canopies did you have when you bought your first main?

imho, a 1.3 wingloading at 100 or less jumps is counting on your bag of luck to not empty before your bag of experience is full.

[billvon 2,991]

>So its about 222 lbs at door. I was adviced to buy canopy sized 170
> as a first canopy. Please check the size chart of Sabre2 @ PD. Its
> somewhere between Advance and Experienced.

>I might able to see that something, somewhere is wrong, cant I????

Yes you could, and that would be a very good thing to realize. So either you are on a canopy you may not be ready for or the manufacturer is lying to you.

Let me ask you this - how do you know you're ready for this canopy? What manuevers have you completed on a 190 to make sure you can handle the 170? What did the instructor who taught your canopy control course say about your skills?

[Ron 10]

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My instructor told me that PD size chatrs have only safe limits.......legal issues?

And you are just going to blindly listen to him?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[phoenixlpr 0]

Im sorry to lead to topic off.

[Ron 10]

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Am I an advanced canopy pilot? I don't know? I don't know what that means. I didn't want to say yes to
Ron because then I would have played right into his argument about the topic.

So you would rather not let me win an argument that tell the truth.

I tell ya....You had better be an advaced canopy pilot with that 1.5...Or we WILL be reading about you here as well.

Now I think you take a good approach to canopy flight, but you had better have your shit together or you WILL get broken.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[phoenixlpr 0]

Ive found something about WL limit/recomendation.
Thats a dealers site:
http://www.parasale.com/siipikuormataulukko.html

green = first square canopy
orange = 2nd square or 1st elliptic
red = 2nd elliptic

Most canopy in use is sabre 135,150
Thats not my category, I know very well.

[Scrumpot 1]

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you did not ground anyone! All they had to do was go to another DZ! They can jump there all they want. You did not ground them. You only "think" you did! Wake Up.

And this is a shame. Here.... resurected from another post of mine made months ago. ...This one as it relates to someone suffering a very serious injury as a result of his not liking to be "grounded", and in fact going elsewhere, JUST BECAUSE HE "COULD"...

Apologies for the lengthiness of this post, but...

-------
Used to be when you were grounded at a DZ for doing something stupid (low-pulling for instance), you sat out that requisite time (still came to the DZ however), and you "took your lumps". How many of us accept that now?? No sir, now adays too many of us say "screw that DZO, I'm gonna go down the street & jump the competitors DZ & I'll do whatever I want"! Adam, you have touched upon it here, and unfortunately it all may simply just be a bi-product of the "mainstreaming" & further competitive (between DZ's) nature that this sport has recently evolved to. Many of these evolutions have been positive, I'm not bashing that, but many also have not. If Ken & Barbie wanna come out and skydive, so be it. What these Ken's & Barbie's of todays world don't seem to know, respect &/or appreciate however, is that these EXPERIENCES (outside of the "instant gratification" world) really DO & can work out to be in THEIR benefit ---for the long haul.

The result of being grounded for a few days, or a week (or even a month ...but I won't get into that! ) is that sure, initially you don't agree with it. You may even vociferously "gripe". But you continue to hang with your buds around the DZ campfire anyway & you inevitably end up talking about it & you LEARN from it. Nobody seems to have that level of patience anymore. EVERYBODY is "right" and justified somehow from their own perspective, no matter what they have done. They WON'T listen, and "screw everybody else!" ---Even the DZO could be wrong in some instances too. If that were the case, a concensus of support would swell around that campfire & then yup ---miracle of miracles even THEY might learn by this! Things would have a natural way of working themselves out that way. And you would have a symbiotic respect between even competing DZO's. Do something stupid, flip-off the DZO & go down the street to jump? ...Would never happen. For better or worse my friend, skydiving has become too much of a mainstream BUSINESS, and unfortunately some of those intrinsic core values you seem to be grasping for also seem somehow in the "modern era" as a result, to have been lost.
-------

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Scrumpot 1]

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Yep, basically. It's harder to go 350 miles to jump than 20, so grounding them at all the nerby DZ's helps keep them on the ground.

Does that level of inter-DZ cooperation still really exist anywhere TODAY though? ...I'd venture to guess (and if I'm wrong, that's fine ...remember this is only a GUESS ) that a jumper "grounded" at Perris today, can probably just hit the I-10 (or whatever it is), pull up in 'Snore @ 30 minutes later & he/she's on the next load. Please do tell me that scenario is wrong though.

Blues,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[billvon 2,991]

>that a jumper "grounded" at Perris today, can probably just hit the I
>-10 (or whatever it is), pull up in 'Snore @ 30 minutes later &
> he/she's on the next load. Please do tell me that scenario is wrong though.

Elsinore and Perris still respect each other's grounding. I have no idea how they communicate with each other, though - does Dan pick up the phone and give Lob a call? Not sure.

[kallend 2,027]

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My instructor told me that PD size chatrs have only safe limits.......legal issues?

And you are just going to blindly listen to him?

Right on! Much better to get advice from the Internet than from your instructor.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[freakydiver 0]

Canuck, I've seen your landings - I think you'll be fine on the Crossfire - it was more for anyone else reading this post...

Also, I was just being honest in my question about rear riser flaring since I've never done it, never seen anyone do it, etc...

I'm confused because I thought if a swooper completed the front riser dive, I thought that they only use rear risers to plane out and finish the landing... Just wondering - and DOOD - you are at my home DZ so I'd cut you slack if you robbed a bank

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[freakydiver 0]

If I may - I honestly don't think age has anything to do with intelligence - look at people like Travis Pastrana busting out backflips and 360s on a 250cc motorbike. Experience come ONLY from knowledge and also knowing what you don't know and need to learn. Sounds alot like what people need to know to learn how to swoop - i.e. - look newbie wannabee swooper - you are low on the totem pole, it will take you years to get higher on it, not 20 jumps, don't be stupid or risk ending up like fucking superman in a wheelchair and barely being able to use the shitter.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[freakydiver 0]

Really really well put!

And how fukken true!

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[bigdude 0]

1: This kid was slowed down by talking to him, explaining the dangers, explaining how to "learn at altitude" and then bring it down. He was taught how to learn. Having his rear chewed when he failed to listen and then helped to understand why we were upset. Because we cared about him and this sport. He attended a canopy safety seminar and was taught about "SLAM's". "Stupid-Low-Altitude-Maneuvers" and discussed what the results could be. But while we are gone he followed the advise of an "expert" and now is living the results of his "SLAM".

2: You question, or imply, others are questioning my level of commitment. Well Jimbo, that's typically your style. The DZO was talked to several times about this "kid" (sorry Rgroper). This was not a customer, he was a packer, staff, friend. If you want to discuss my commitment, come see me.


3: No Jimbo, I was not more concerned about losing a customer, but nice try. As I said, this kid was a packer. He made money for the DZO but not a dime for me. Now he's in the hospital with out insurance, the DZO is without a packer, and I'm watching you try and place the blame on someone other than the true cause. You said it's "bad form" to mention PM's. Well Jimbo, it's "bad form" to say one thing in a PM and another in the "form". Tells me alot about your commitment.

Here are the facts again Jimbo, just for you. This kid had just returned from Rantoul as a swoop king regardless of what we said. While I and the DZO were away at an event he decided to try what an expert told him he needed to do. He missed, and "SLAM-ed" real, real hard. Now he's going to go through 6-12 months of rehab.

But I'll tell you this. When I visited him in the hospital to show my lack of commitment, all I asked was if he had learned anything? He did not hear an "I told you so". I simply told him I was glad he survived. Then, offered him and his mother, anything that I could do to help them get through the next year.

Some people have "teeth", some have self-imposed power to "ground" skydivers, some are just experts with opinions on everything. Just be careful please because when you are giving your expert opinion, that "kid" sitting on the bench next to you who believes you experts, may be another friend of mine. I don't like coming home from a trip and going to the hospital.

Still giving you Blues,

J.E.

[Jimbo 0]

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We all know that S&TA's cant do much but the DZO is the final word at every dz.

The S&TA has as much power as the DZO chooses to trust him with and as much of that power as he chooses to accept.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[wmw999 2,446]

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I know the student program is different in Finland than it is in the US

Erno actually talked about this at one time -- he said that in Finland in particular, higher wingloadings are very common, and injury rates are actually below what they seem to be in the US (of course, with the wildly differing populations, and the long non-jumping season, it's barely comparing fruits, never mind apples to apples). It may well be there is a stronger one-on-one mentoring program there that encourages folks to treat canopies with respect, rather than expecing the canopies to treat the jumpers with respect.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[zyzko 0]

Talking about wingloading and the student program in Finland - our student program is 38 jumps, and the first possible jump on your own gear is jump number 25 and that requires the authorization of the instructor. I'm talking about the S/L program, because virtually all students are trained in the S/L -progression, we have only a handfull of AFF student in only one club / year.

Usually people get their license at about 45-55 jumps, then jump a few dozen jumps on borrowed gear and buy their first rig at about 70 jumps. The wl limit for licensed skydiver below 250 jumps is 1.34.

Personally, I would like to see more conservative aproach when people select their first main, but unfortunately they tend to go to 1.2-1.3 -range in the wingload. I think this is mainly because the market for used gear is not that big here, and new gear is expensive because of taxes and tolls (think about US prices, add roughly 35-40%) so people want to choose gear they are likely to jump for several years.

I don't think we have exceptionally good mentoring - expect that majority of our dropzones are small clubs with small Cessnas, so there are not that many people landing at a time, and there is always people observing the landings, so you do get feedback, want it or not - same thing with downsizing after student gear, there is always someone watching.

And those student jumps are by the way made with huge stundent gear (Navigators, Mantas and Raiders mainly).

-Kari

[rgoper 0]

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look newbie wannabee swooper

personal attack? ah, i can rise above, is that all ya got?

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you are low on the totem pole, it will take you years to get higher on it, not 20 jumps

again, i might would be even slightly offended if the source wasn't being taken into consideration.

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don't be stupid or risk ending up like fucking superman in a wheelchair and barely being able to use the shitter.

yeah, i guess your right, but, what do i know? never so much as broken pride in all my years and jumps in this sport. your vulgararity and insults have little if any impact, stop showing your IQ, it's sad when it's around your shoe size. you be safe, and take care.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[Ron 10]

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Right on! Much better to get advice from the Internet than from your instructor.

John...come on you know me better than that!

I can't believe that people ask questions here from people they don't know about things that could kill them.

All I mean is to say I don't take ANYONES word as fact. And no one else should either.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334