Ron 10 #26 August 19, 2003 QuoteOkay Hook, bring it on. Can I???? 200 jumps 1.5...this was fucking stupid. Everyone here knows my take on this...And this is why. When everyone bitched about regulation...And then others wanted to water it down so that people just had to take a class...This is why regulation SHOULD FUCKING HAPPEN! This kid had no buisness under a 1.5 at 200 jumps...No one does. He just came back from a class, and really fucked up.. It shows that only EXPERIENCE will teach...Classes can introduce knowledge...But you have to have the EXPERIENCE to know how to use it, and when. Im glad he is not dead. I hope he walks fine for the rest of hs life."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #27 August 19, 2003 Quote Skydivers won't support wing loading restrictions, the 'Wingloading BSR' threads proved that. Derek That's not the case everywhere. We do a pretty damn good job of policing our own here at Raeford. It may help that my DZO is the regional director. It may also help that I have more "teeth" than others may in my S&TA role here. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #28 August 19, 2003 QuoteThis is a kid, 25 or so i have to dissagree with the "kid" label. 25 or so? kid? that's either an excuse being made for him, or somone trying to exonorate themselves from any guilt assosiation. not pointing any fingers, just making an observation. when i was 25 or so, i was no "kid" i'm more than sure this young man isn't in that classification either, although i cannot speak for him, i'm more than sure he would not be pleased with this assigned rank in the human society. that said, what it boils down to is everybody has to be responsable for their own actions and reactions. i've seen a lot of hot dog canopy pilots coming off of graduation, first thing they do is start to seek out gear. at what point do the vendors, whether original or independent be held to accountability? about 3 out of every 10 of these new canopy pilots don't last 3-4 years in this sport due to injury, or fatality. regulation? c'mon, that's a joke. sky divers would respect regulation about as much as the speed limit on the nations highways. if we start to believe that regulation will fix this problem, we are jerking ourselves off. in summation, regulation will never be accepted, whether you are pro, or opposed to it. so where does the answer lie? easy: Training.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #29 August 19, 2003 QuoteThat's not the case everywhere. We do a pretty damn good job of policing our own here at Raeford. Ya, that was too general. There are DZ's that do a great job of keeping WL under control. Being backed up by the DZO makes all the difference. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #30 August 19, 2003 QuoteQuoteOkay Hook, bring it on. Can I???? 200 jumps 1.5...this was fucking stupid. Everyone here knows my take on this...And this is why. When everyone bitched about regulation...And then others wanted to water it down so that people just had to take a class...This is why regulation SHOULD FUCKING HAPPEN! This kid had no buisness under a 1.5 at 200 jumps...No one does. He just came back from a class, and really fucked up.. It shows that only EXPERIENCE will teach...Classes can introduce knowledge...But you have to have the EXPERIENCE to know how to use it, and when. Im glad he is not dead. I hope he walks fine for the rest of hs life. Didn't your proposal allow a jumper to exceed the WL restrictions after taking a class?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #31 August 19, 2003 QuoteDidn't your proposal allow a jumper to exceed the WL restrictions after taking a class? Actually No. Mine was a test. The PRO rating to be exact. Others wanted to water it down to try to please people, which it didn't. I still stick by what I said...You want to jump outside that chart. PROVE you can handle the canopy at the wingload that the chart says you should be at, then you would be allowed to downsize one step. This is a perfect example of why just a class will not work. Ron BTW I like the sig line. "But is just a tinsy little paper thin wafer"."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymonkey 0 #32 August 19, 2003 You know? The funny thing is that manufacturers set WL limits for us especially PD, it's on their parashute placard and it breaks it down to exp levels and all.. Check it out.. Miguel Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #33 August 19, 2003 QuoteYou know? The funny thing is that manufacturers set WL limits for us especially PD, it's on their parashute placard and it breaks it down to exp levels and all.. Check it out.. Yep, but how do you tell who is an "Expert" or a "Novice"? They give listings but don't say what each level is."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #34 August 19, 2003 QuoteYep, but how do you tell who is an "Expert" or a "Novice"? Regardless of any subjective "Expert" or "Novice" type of classification, there is an absolute limit set by the manufacturer.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #35 August 19, 2003 QuoteRegardless of any subjective "Expert" or "Novice" type of classification, there is an absolute limit set by the manufacturer. Yes, but 1.5 is within the limits for a Stiletto. 1.69 is listed as Max For a 135 1.2 is listed as Advanced. 1.5 is between Expert 1.4, and MAX 1.67. So 200 jumps is Expert? I don't see 200 jumps as Advanced. Do you?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #36 August 19, 2003 I wasn't suggesting that it was the total solution, only pointing out that there were both objective and subjective limits.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #37 August 19, 2003 I must say that I was extremely impressed with the folks at PD while in Rantoul. They asked all the right questions to people wanting to demo their products, and took it upon themselves to say no. Kudos to them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #38 August 19, 2003 QuoteI don't see 200 jumps as Advanced who could possibly be an "Advanced" canopy pilot in 200 jumps? well, besides Super Man. it seems there are a lot of sky divers screaming about newer sky divers flying dish rags, but hollering and screaming trying to set rules and regulations will never fix this problematic area of our sport. only the DZO's and designated S&TA's can. but i've seen some S&TA's i wouldn't trust with a water hose valves position. when the proper training program is initiated and implemented, then we'll have a better handle on it. bottom line: $$$ i hate to say it, but we all know to support a DZ we must process a continual interest to the general public, so that means Tandems, AFF, AFP...etc. "Get em' in, get em' out, sell them their gear. it doesn't matter who we are talking about, anybody that wants to can buy a high performance canopy on the internet and go jump the thing and either cripple themselves for life, take someone else out with them, and there's nothing anyone can do about it, thus the legal waivers, take the legal waiver away that would end the whole game right there. sad but true if someone isn't legally responsable for someone else's welfare, and they can make $$$ off of the individual why would they care? when i see this particular BS going on anywhere i go, i won't jump at that place anymore, i ain't going out like that. how intelligent must someone be to NOT know that hurling themselves from an airplane each time they exit it, it may be the last sane thing they do? Gentlemen, this is no rocket science, what's the sense in complicating the topic? regardless of jump numbers, years in the sport, currency etc...the next jump anyone makes can be their last. simple, ain't it?--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #39 August 19, 2003 Oh I agree. Expert is very subjective... MAX is not. But I doubt anyone would call 200 jumps even Advanced. (except people with 200 jumps) Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #40 August 19, 2003 QuoteBut I doubt anyone would call 200 jumps even Advanced. (except people with 200 jumps) Why do you assume that everyone within the 100-500 jump category considers themselves to be an expert? I know I'm no expert. Just watching the good guys swoop the pond in Rantoul served to remind myself how much better some of those guys are compared to myself. Sure some hot shots (usually, but not always young males) believe they are invincible and worthy of flying that hot pocket rocket. But not all of us think that way. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #41 August 19, 2003 QuoteWhy do you assume that everyone within the 100-500 jump category considers themselves to be an expert? Never said that. I said Advanced....And most people who I know with 200 jumps consider themselves Advanced. You jump a SABRE 2 170 right? at a 1.4 I think right? PD has the Sabre 2 at Expert at 1.3 and MAX at 1.5. Am I wrong here?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #42 August 19, 2003 Is it our problem,. that manufacturers give ridiculous WL limits, because they said to afraid of legal consequences? Safe landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #43 August 19, 2003 QuoteYou jump a SABRE 2 170 right? at a 1.4 I think right? PD has the Sabre 2 at Expert at 1.3 and MAX at 1.5. Am I wrong here? You are close (wing loading is more like 1.35, but you are close) and in the not too distant future I will be switching to a Crossfire2 loaded at about 1.5 (let's not forget that Icarus recommends a certain wing loading for the Crossfire2 and I did demo the very same canopy I am buying in Rantoul, but it will behave differently in CO). Some may say that I too may be an accident waiting to happen based on this wing loading. But without knowing how I fly, how could they be sure. I have posted three of my landings on skydivingmovies.com for people to view and judge if they want. I have two landings where I could have messed myself up and believe me those experiences are in my head when I fly. I know I'm not invincible. And when I start flying the new canopy, I will spend time doing hop n' pops to learn the canopy and it will be a while before I begin trying high performance landings. But like anyone regardless of skill or experience, I will always be at risk doing high performance landings because the margin for error doing high performance landings is slim. Do I think I'm an advanced canopy pilot? I don't know. I do think I have reasonable skills ready for the Crossfire2 (once again I have publicly posted video of my landings from a few months ago). But I do know that I put my life in my hands on every jump and reckless behavior will surely be my demise. As far as this accident is concerned, I suspect that the injured skydiver attempted to do a high performance maneuver which he was not ready (skilled) for. I have seem some of my peers do rear riser approaches and thought that at some point I should try them. But I don't think I'm ready for that yet, just as I'm not ready to swoop the pond yet. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymonkey 0 #44 August 19, 2003 Ask the manufacturer of a definition of each level. They are responsible for that clarification. I'm sure any manufacturer that you call will have sorted this out already.. People just don't take the time to ask the questions, they just assume.. Miguel Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #45 August 19, 2003 QuoteYou are close (wing loading is more like 1.35, but you are close) and in the not too distant future I will be switching to a Crossfire2 loaded at about 1.5 Now you and I have talked before...I don't think you are a crater looking for a spot to happen. But, you see how I can say that most people think they are advanced? You are going to a 1.5 here soon. I would venture to say that a 1.5 at 400 jumps is Advanced...Hell I have almost 3,000 jumps and Im at 1.68...which just happens to be the MAX listed for the Stiletto. Of course I got that size canopy at 700 jumps I think. Not a slam...just a statement based on observations...Which you seem to fit into. And thats not saying I expect to see you listed in Incidents...I don't...But there are plenty of people in that same position I do expect to see listed.. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #46 August 19, 2003 QuoteIs it our problem,. that manufacturers give ridiculous WL limits, because they said to afraid of legal consequences? And you have come to this based on 108 jumps? I think they are very reasonable. Can they be exceded? Yes. But I have found a Stiletto to start to loose performance right at 1.7...Right where PD says it will.... Funny huh? The people that make the canopies having a clue as to how they should be flown? Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #47 August 19, 2003 QuoteAsk the manufacturer of a definition of each level. They are responsible for that clarification. I'm sure any manufacturer that you call will have sorted this out already.. People just don't take the time to ask the questions, they just assume.. How about you ask...I already have..Let me know what they say."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #48 August 19, 2003 QuoteFunny huh? The people that make the canopies having a clue as to how they should be flown? Yes well imagine that! It isn't as if they don't have test pilots to push the canopies to the limits either, and then come to a conclusion regarding recommendations based upon their findings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #49 August 19, 2003 QuoteQuoteAsk the manufacturer of a definition of each level. They are responsible for that clarification. I'm sure any manufacturer that you call will have sorted this out already.. People just don't take the time to ask the questions, they just assume.. How about you ask...I already have..Let me know what they say. he attended a swoop seminar at Rantoul given by a big name team swooper and was told "you've got it going, just work on it and start using those rear risers". So he did, missed, and is now in the hospital after breaking a femur, pelvis, dislocating the hip, and bruising a bunch of internals. This accident was NOT caused by the canopy or the wing loading. The cause is succinctly stated above - lack of judgement and/or skill after being encouraged by an expert. Blaming the tools is counter productive.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #50 August 19, 2003 QuoteThis accident was NOT caused by the canopy or the wing loading. The cause is succinctly stated above - lack of judgement and/or skill after being encouraged by an expert. Blaming the tools is counter productive. John...we have been down this road before....you don't give a new pilot an F-16. To fly complex you need more training, and you need to PROVE you can handle it...Same thing here. If he were under a 1.2 WL I doubt he would have been as fucked up...if he was hurt at all."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
