TXJumper 0 #1 July 30, 2003 Can anyone tell me what are the requirements for AFF Jump masters? I visited a local DZ and during a couple of conversations found out that the DZO is allowing unrated AFF Jump masters to go up with their students. This is on all AFF Levels not just the lower levels with two jump masters. My girlfriend wants to go through the course, but learning this I'm not sure that it's the best recourse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #2 July 30, 2003 find another DZ, problem solved. --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wrightskyguy 1 #3 July 30, 2003 Don't let your girlfriend jump there, unless you don't like her. The unrated guys there may have the skills necessary to function as a JM but, there is no way for you to know. A USPA rated instructor has at least 500 jumps and has demonstrated his/her proficiency in at least 2 USPA administered courses. An instructor has to be able to teach as well as skydive and the fact that someone is a good RW jumper doesn't necessarily that they can fly with and effectively critique and correct student problems in real time. Rated AFF instructors have demonstrated these skills, unrated guys have not. Find another DZ. Jump nice John Wright John Wright World's most beloved skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JDBoston 0 #4 July 30, 2003 Well, if they're unrated, then they ain't an AFF-I. They're just... a jumper. Yep, find another DZ. Life is short anyway, and it can get a lot shorter if you cut corners in skydiving. Joe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TXJumper 0 #5 July 30, 2003 Don't USPA DZ's have to use rated jump masters? I located this DZ through Parachutist and they are a USPA member? They have a couple of good rated jump masters, but they are often gone because of their jobs. The other "experienced" jump master is unrated and they are letting her jump with upper levels. The S&TA is not around often enough, and one of the unrated jump masters is his ex-wife. I will take my girlfriend to another DZ, but who monitors these DZ's to make sure they are using rated jump masters? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #6 July 30, 2003 No matter where you go, its important to interview your Instructors whether they have a USPA AFF rating or not. There are very good Instructor's that work at "bandit" drop zones (some of whom used to have USPA AFF Instructor Ratings) just as much as their are bad AFF Instructors at USPA DZs. The opposite is also true. Ken Coleman - World and national champion who created the accelerated freefall program was actually doing "bandit" AFF's for years before it was adopted by the USPA. I will not say that where you went is good or bad. I can tell you that I am intrigued that they have 2 JM's on all levels. This could be good or bad. It could be good in that they recognize that a high percentage of AFF students bail at Level 4 (that point that the dive flow becomes more complicated and the student is suddenly introduced to only one JM in the formal AFF program). It could be bad in that they recognize they need two "just to be on the safe side." It would be better to go to a USPA DZ that has USPA AFF-rated Instructors if possible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #7 July 30, 2003 Quotewho monitors these DZ's to make sure they are using rated jump masters? No one. A USPA Group Member DZ 'pledges' to follow the BSR's, but no one enforces that. This is why the GM is almost worthless. Find another DZ. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #8 July 30, 2003 Under the new coach program coaches are able to fill in for some of the duties of AFF JM's in certian skill evaluations. Cat G and H parts to be exact.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #9 July 30, 2003 What jumps? If these students are done with the 7 levels...Then a coach, or even a good RW guy with the S&TA's blessing can jump with them... Until they have a license they are all "Students"."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TXJumper 0 #10 July 30, 2003 Clarification on the upper level jumps is that they only use one Jump Master and more often than not it's the unrated jumper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TXJumper 0 #11 July 30, 2003 Levels I-VII. The DZ does have coaching jump masters. Their more experienced jumpers do a lot of those jumps, including one of their tandem instructors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #12 July 30, 2003 Are you saying that jumps I-VII are done with USPA rated AFF Instructors, but then when the "graduation" solo dive is done, they are handed off to other folks who don't have an Instructor's rating. Because a USPA Coach can do categories G & H. Once they're done with that, "technically" they can jump with anyone (within reason) until they are off student status (completed 25 skydives and completed the A License proficiency card). Please clarify this for everyone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TXJumper 0 #13 July 30, 2003 Clarification: Levels I-VII are being done by unrated jump masters. Talking with one of the regulars there they explained Levels I-III can be completed with one rated JM and one unrated, and Levels IV-VII with a rated JM only. However I witnessed 2 students complete levels 5 and 6 and 6 and 7 with an unrated JM. The regulars indicated that the rated JM's were not there that weekend. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #14 July 30, 2003 OK Thanks. I 'thought" that's what you meant, but as the thread progressed, made me wonder if I (and perhaps others) misunderstood. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wrightskyguy 1 #15 July 30, 2003 Clarification: Levels I-VII are being done by unrated jump masters. Talking with one of the regulars there they explained Levels I-III can be completed with one rated JM and one unrated, and Levels IV-VII with a rated JM only. However I witnessed 2 students complete levels 5 and 6 and 6 and 7 with an unrated JM. The regulars indicated that the rated JM's were not there that weekend. < At no time can an unrated person participate in an AFF dive, ever. Jump nice John Wright John Wright World's most beloved skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snowflake 0 #16 July 30, 2003 I personally wouldn't let anyone take instruction where something like that is going on. In fact I'm pretty sure I know the DZ they had an ad with a picture of an AFF student and 2 JM's and someone pointed at one and said their not rated. I was appaled(sp). Theres another one out that way that a friend of mine visited and they had to pull for her on AFF I...They passed her. PM me if you want the DZ names Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markbaur 0 #17 July 30, 2003 QuoteThey had to pull for her on AFF I...They passed her. Failure to pull should not be an automatic Level 1/Category A bust. If the rest of the dive went well, but a jumpmaster pulled because the student misread the altimeter, then Level 2/Cat B should probably be next. After all, you're not planning to let go on Level 2/Cat B -- and static line Cat A doesn't even require an attempted ripcord pull for advancement to static line Cat B. I would recommend another Level 1/Cat A skydive only if the student needed additional time to be comfortable in the environment and was unlikely to be able to perform Level 2/Cat B maneuvers. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TEB6363 0 #18 July 30, 2003 I would call and let USPA know what you have seen going on at the DZ. National Director - Madolyn Murdock 905 Chesterwood Pearland, TX 77581 (281) 992-4192 (h/phone/fax) (713) 681-7722 (w) (713) 681-8530 (w/fax) Regional Director - Lee Schlichtemeier 5320 Inverrary Dr. Plano, TX 75093 (972) 867-6860 (h) (979) 776-3028 (fax) This information if from the USPA web page and is public information. Please call, the life you save may be someone you love... Once the plane takes off, you're gonna have to land - Might as well jump out!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snowflake 0 #19 July 30, 2003 She was not altitude aware she told me so. To me and I'm not an AFF I, but thats a bust Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #20 July 30, 2003 < At no time can an unrated person participate in an AFF dive, ever I dont think their is anything in the FAR's about this, and the regulations are "recomendations" so is there anything any one could do about this?? RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #21 July 30, 2003 QuoteI would call and let USPA know what you have seen going on at the DZ. I did that once, even offered to show video of a jump w/ a non-rated JM. I was told "What do you want me to do, take away a rating he doesn't have?" USPA relies on GM and individual membership dues for its existence. If USPA were to kick a DZ out of the GM program for using non-rated Instructors, then they would no longer receive the GM dues and the DZ would no longer be obligated to require USPA membership of it's jumpers. Both result in loss of revenue for USPA. The fox is guarding the hen house. USPA won't cut its own throat. This was the DZO of a large DZ, revenue producing for USPA. So nothing was done. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TXJumper 0 #22 July 30, 2003 It's one and the same DZ. I saw the same ad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #23 July 30, 2003 QuoteDon't let your girlfriend jump there, unless you don't like her. The unrated guys there may have the skills necessary to function as a JM but, there is no way for you to know. A USPA rated instructor has at least 500 jumps and has demonstrated his/her proficiency in at least 2 USPA administered courses. An instructor has to be able to teach as well as skydive and the fact that someone is a good RW jumper doesn't necessarily that they can fly with and effectively critique and correct student problems in real time. Rated AFF instructors have demonstrated these skills, unrated guys have not. Find another DZ. [Devil's advocate mode] So what about guys who earned their AFF ratings and then let their USPA membership lapse over one beef or another? They are unrated, but does that mean they are lesser instructors than the ones who continue to pay USPA dues each year? [/Devil's advocate mode] Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #24 July 30, 2003 If you don't have a rating get one. If you have a rating, and wish to use it, Keep it current. Pretty simple actually.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #25 July 30, 2003 Quote If you have a rating, and wish to use it, Keep it current. By current, are you referring to currency (i.e. X number of jumps per year) or how recently you paid money to get a new date typed on some piece of paper. If the latter, what does that have to do with safety? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
