Delay before reserve pull?

[The111 1]

Some of you may have read about my "incident" (reserve fired into main) in the incident forum. Since then safety has been on my mind 24/7, and I keep thinking and thinking about all sorts of possible situations and how I should react to them. I am getting a Vector 3 built and had a hard time deciding whether or not to get Skyhook, but I decided not to since it is so new.

Anyway, my question is this. Does anyone here delay after cutting away before pulling reserve? Obviously it would depend on many things, namely the nature of your body position/stability after the malfunction, and the cutaway altitude. Is there a type of malfunction that can put you back to earth? Maybe a sprial where you face the outside, if that's possible? And if you pull reserve immediately after cutting away, could you be dropping your PC below you and risk entanglement?

Even in a feet to earth position (say due to a line over or some other non-spinning malfunction), it still seems weird to me to pull the reserve right away, since I'm used to being on my belly, but I feel like if I did take the time to transition to my belly (due to a rough spin and sufficient altitude to regain stability), when I reached for the handle from my belly flight, it would cause me to go slightly head down which doesn't seem like a very good position. But I'm afraid it I reached for it in a feet down position immediately after cutaway I could momentarily tip backwards a little which seems even worse.

Obviously I'm hoping for advice from people who have experienced at least a few cutaways in their time... but opinions from anyone are welcome.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[darkwing 5]

In a sense you answer your own question. Yes, there are times to delay and times not to. NEVER be on the wrong side of that decision though.

If I am under a main and spinning on my back at 4 grand I'll delay. If I am at 1 grand I won't delay. It is the fuzzy part in between that kills people.

Any scenario you come up with is likely to be morph-able into a fuzzy area. You had better decide for yourself, so that there aren't any real decisions to make.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[Blahr 0]

The fact that the skyhook is new is no reason to not get it. Its been exhaustively tested and is extremely effective. A lot of the reasons that people dont like the RSL are not valid with the skyhook. ITs not the same.
As a new jumper you would be far better off with one than without.
This is merely my opinion.


I've just odered a new Vector and you bet your butt it has a skyhook.

[TEB6363 0]

Here is my 2 cents....

This is not meant to start a war about the RSL debate or stir up differing opinions about "getting stable" before reserve deployment..

I jump with a RSL attached. I use it on my Tandem jumps, and I use the RSL on my personal rig. I do not wait to deploy the reserve. I complete the cutaway and then pull my reserve ripcord - because the RSL is (in theory) doing that same thing.

That is MY decision and it works for me... Others may differ in their opinion
Yes, I have had some cutaways. Yes, I have seen the reserve going out past my back/shoulder when I cutaway from a spinning malfunction. The system works...

Blue Skies

Once the plane takes off, you're gonna have to land - Might as well jump out!!

[tombuch 0]

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In a sense you answer your own question. Yes, there are times to delay and times not to. NEVER be on the wrong side of that decision though.

If I am under a main and spinning on my back at 4 grand I'll delay. If I am at 1 grand I won't delay. It is the fuzzy part in between that kills people.

Any scenario you come up with is likely to be morph-able into a fuzzy area. You had better decide for yourself, so that there aren't any real decisions to make.

Good answer. I'll add a bit of my own....

First, have a default plan. For me that is DO NOT WAIT TO GET STABLE. My plan is to pull the reserve rightaway UNLESS I know where I am and know I have enough time to flip over. For me, that magic altitude is 1,000 feet AGL, for those with less experience it may be 2,000 feet, or it could be every jump regardless of altitude. Too many cutaways happen at low altitude and the jumper has no clue he is there. Don't let yourself get into the trap of getting stable just before impact.

Second, decide right now what your magic altitude is. Make the decision when you have time to think about it, then use that as your standard. Don't try to fudge a decision at 1,500 feet under a spinner.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem)
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[The111 1]

Thanks, Blahr... it really is a tough choice. I believe it's been tested and all but I might feel slightly better if it had been in use in the field for 5 years. It is a SMALL possibility that in real use, a shortsight may be revealed that wasn't seen in design or testing... I dunno.

I also don't know a lot about how it works and being an engineer I like to understand my gear. What if you have a main PC in tow and you choose not to cut away but simply pull your reserve? Would the Skyhook interfere with this situation? I feel stupid asking this since I'm sure the knowledgeable folk at RWS already took this and a million other scenarios into consideration, but "there's no stupid questions"...

Mainly I think, with a Skyhook, I would have an extra variable in my rig and be a little more likely to get confused in the event of a malfunction. So maybe my doubt is more in my own ability than in the Skyhook. I still pull pretty high, so I like to think that I'll have time to think in a malfunction (short of another low self-induced one).

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[DJL 235]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=374966;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

Bill Booth has links and explainations, pictures, and etc. of every sinle malfunction. It's a nice piece of work.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[riggerrob 643]

I'll give you a hint.
During the I993 PIA Symposium, Troy Loney gave lecture about reserve container design from the pilotchute's perspective.
Photographs clearly showed that the best time to deploy a reserve pilotchute was one second after cutting away from a slow-moving main. The vertical airflow across the jumper's back was the best for pilotchute deployment.
One thing Troy learned from those tests was that the first few EOS prototypes had wimpy pilotchute springs. EOS production springs were far more powerful.
As for fear about deploying unstable after cutting away from a spinning malfunction, remember that spinning malfunctions lose altitude far faster than the human brain can comprehend. You will be far lower than you think you are.
USPA fatality reports are full of accidents where the jumper cut away from a mal and spent the rest of his life trying to get stable. When in doubt, err on the side of pulling your reserve ripcord IMMEDIATELY after cutting away.

[The111 1]

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http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=374966;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

Bill Booth has links and explainations, pictures, and etc. of every sinle malfunction. It's a nice piece of work.

Thanks. :)

Quote

I'll give you a hint.
During the I993 PIA Symposium, Troy Loney gave lecture about reserve container design from the pilotchute's perspective.
Photographs clearly showed that the best time to deploy a reserve pilotchute was one second after cutting away from a slow-moving main. The vertical airflow across the jumper's back was the best for pilotchute deployment.
One thing Troy learned from those tests was that the first few EOS prototypes had wimpy pilotchute springs. EOS production springs were far more powerful.
As for fear about deploying unstable after cutting away from a spinning malfunction, remember that spinning malfunctions lose altitude far faster than the human brain can comprehend. You will be far lower than you think you are.
USPA fatality reports are full of accidents where the jumper cut away from a mal and spent the rest of his life trying to get stable. When in doubt, err on the side of pulling your reserve ripcord IMMEDIATELY after cutting away.

Very good points RR, I think that will be my plan.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[rendezvous 0]

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But I'm afraid it I reached for it in a feet down position immediately after cutaway I could momentarily tip backwards a little which seems even worse.

---

Well, the procedure is to arch a bit before you cutaway. That way you will no more be standing vertical or feet down. Anyway, if you have a Static Line your pilotchute will probably be out much faster than the time it takes your body to react to the loss of support from the main. Not promoting that you rely on it, but that's probably whats going to happen. At this early stage in your Skydiving I'd say keep the procedure common, simple and same for everything i.e cut and pull no matter what. It's more important to have a parachute on your head than to be thinking about what would be the cleanest way when it actually happens. With time you'll build more awareness and will be able to take those decisions. At that point you can revisit your procedures if you want too. If you fly a conservative canopy and later slowly transition out of it you'll be quite safe and can keep your procedures quite simple. After all you did manage to come out of what could have been a very nasty situation so do not loose faith in yourself. If you lived through it you did well to survive and will do even better then next time.

[The111 1]

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Well, the procedure is to arch a bit before you cutaway. That way you will no more be standing vertical or feet down. Anyway, if you have a Static Line your pilotchute will probably be out much faster than the time it takes your body to react to the loss of support from the main. Not promoting that you rely on it, but that's probably whats going to happen. At this early stage in your Skydiving I'd say keep the procedure common, simple and same for everything i.e cut and pull no matter what. It's more important to have a parachute on your head than to be thinking about what would be the cleanest way when it actually happens. With time you'll build more awareness and will be able to take those decisions. At that point you can revisit your procedures if you want too. If you fly a conservative canopy and later slowly transition out of it you'll be quite safe and can keep your procedures quite simple. After all you did manage to come out of what could have been a very nasty situation so do not loose faith in yourself. If you lived through it you did well to survive and will do even better then next time.

Very well said. I agree with what you said, I'm going to get it ingrained in my head to cut and pull no matter what (since I'm opting out of any form of RSL)... it's too much complication for me to worry about anything else. You're right that I can only have better experiences than my undeserved escape I recently experienced. :) I'm also glad you suggested to arch before going for the handles, not sure if my instructors neglected to tell me that or if I forgot... the latter is more likely.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Tonto 1]

If you're going to err, err on the side of pulling your reserve too soon after the cutaway - rather than too late. Too late is too late. 100% of shots that don't reach the target - Miss.

The in between is tricky, and that's where people die.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Rdutch 0]

I can give you my opinion, I have 2100 jumps and 4 cutaways, all of them are under extremely highly loaded mains, and none of them (The Mal's) were pretty. I Cutaway, and waited to roll over, then pulled my reserve. Oh sorry, I have 5 cutaways, I put a jump on the skyhook test rig, with my Velocity 96. I just put my order in today for my new Vector3 with the skyhook. After jumping it, and seeing it test jumped over, and over, and over, and over, ect. I think it is a great idea. You are right to think about waiting for a product to prove itself, and who wouldn't. But based on what I have seen with my own eyes, and experienced, I have no problem having a skyhook in my rig.
Look around, ask questions, and form your own opinion. Whatever you decide is best for you, is best for you.

Ps, did you check out the movie Breakaway yet? It answers a lot of your questions, and seeing it helps it all make sence.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[The111 1]

Quote

Ps, did you check out the movie Breakaway yet? It answers a lot of your questions, and seeing it helps it all make sence.

Nah I do nothing but work during the week. And post to forums FROM work of course. :) I'm planning on checking it out as soon as I can.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[lazyfrog 0]

never happened to me, though discussed it with Alejandro from Aria Team (working with Babylon at empuriabrava). He told me to leave a delay... You only have 1 reserve (normally) and you want it to work properly.
Still have to consider the altitude...
Hope youre adventure gives a good experience to everybody

----------
Fumer tue, péter pue
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ourson #10, Mosquito Uno, CBT 579

[The111 1]

Another thought on this thread...

As seen in my thread on the gear forum about Skyhook, I've been spending a lot of time debating whether to get no RSL, RSL, or Skyhook RSL on my new rig. I ended up ordering regular RSL after changing my mind about 50 times. I still feel kind of iffy about it, but the deciding factor in my choice was being honest with myself that I *am* inexperienced and there's a high possibility I could freak out in a malfunction and not respond as well as I like to think I would. So if that actually happens, the RSL could possibly help me out. BUT... I'm still worried I'll end up spinning on my back, with plenty of altitude, and actually keeping my cool enough to just be thinking "shit, I'm gonna cut away and my RSL is gonna pull for me before I can get stable, this is gonna suck..."

IF those hyptheticals were all met (i.e. spinning on my back around 3000 ft (I pull at 3500) and being fully aware of what is going on and not freaking out... would it be a bad idea to reach down and disconnect my RSL, THEN cutaway, THEN gain stability, THEN deploy reserve?

I know this is a question I really need to ask an instructor (which I plan on doing next time I'm at the DZ), and I also know one response I'll probably get here is that the procedure above gives me too many "different" emergency procedures to pick between and confuse me. I agree, which is why I usually won't think about that situation. If I malfunction, and I can't see my alit or know I am low, or am scared/freaking out, I will simply do my "failsafe solve-all" double handle pull. BUT... if for some reason I know I am very high, in a very calm state of mind, and spinning on my back and actually have the time and clarity of mind to think "DAMN, I wish my RSL wasn't hooked up"... I kinda think it would be acceptable to reach down and disconnect it. I can't say whether or not I'll ever be in a state of mind that clear which is why I opted FOR the RSL and in the event that things are happening fast and I'm freaking out, I'll just execute my normal procedures no questions asked.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[dragon2 2]

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BUT... if for some reason I know I am very high, in a very calm state of mind, and spinning on my back and actually have the time and clarity of mind to think "DAMN, I wish my RSL wasn't hooked up"... I kinda think it would be acceptable to reach down and disconnect it.

I don't know how many jumps you have, and I'm not an instructor or even a very experienced jumper myself. But in this case I think it wouldn't be wise to even attempt to release the RSL. I've been in a spinning mal, the kind where you might wish for no RSL. But no way did I think about disconnecting it, and probably no way that I even could have. Try finding a little yellow tab when you're spinning on your back... Don't think so. Also such a spinner eats up altitude fast, so I wouldn't waste time. Anyway I ended up under my reserve with no line twists, with a WL of 1.2 and a tapered canopy (Safire), I ended up just fine. Therefore I leave my RSL connected, except for CReW and camera stuff.

However, I do a lot of hopnpops from 12k. Usually I disconnect my RSL then. My plan for a mal is to ride it down for a while if I can, before chopping. If I can't, chop it and fall to at least 4k or so before pulling my reserve. That is my plan. Although I wouldn't really be surprised that if I DO have a mal at altitude, I'll end up under my reserve at 12k anyway, thinking afterward, oh, right... Also, not sure if I want a terminal reserve opening instead of a subterminal one, but that's another question.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Tonto 1]

"If I can't, chop it and fall to at least 4k or so before pulling my reserve."

Well, you're probably never going to see your main again! When I've had high chops (Like with CRW) I catch my freebag, and then follow my main down. Team mates usually fly to spares/team mates unattended to. I'll also catch fellow crewers freebags if they are too low or out of the loop.

WARNING! Only one person chases the freebag! I've seen 2 near collisions from people fixated on the same target.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Ron 10]

I have 6 rides....

The plan I have is VERY simple.

I cutaway...As soon as I FEEL myself fall away and SEE both risers release. I roll belly to relative wind (NOT belly to earth), and pull the reserve. I "cat" roll, not arch to get stable. I twist to get this way, I don't wait to get stable....Way too many craters are made waiting to get stable.

This takes around one second.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334