Clownburner 0 #1 July 21, 2003 Some of the recent incidents have got me thinking.... Let's say you're in full flight at 70-100 feet, on final approach, and you get cut off. Obviously, you need to make a flat turn to avoid the other jumper. Flat turns are done from brakes; you're not in brakes. So how do you transition quickly into brakes and begin a turn? Do you just 'pop' the toggles to say 1/2 brakes and then immediately let one side up 6 inches, or what? How does this differ if you're at 30-60 feet? How is that different from a very high flare, and how do you get to the ground without diving the canopy? Or do you? TIA...7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez "I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 July 21, 2003 Who says you *have* to turn? Depending on the scenerio and your altitude (the higher scenerio for instance) you could probably do a rear-riser "climb" to get the clearance needed. A climbing toggle turn would work too... What about a harness carve out of the way, or even a toggle carve. My point is, that it seems that people are mentally stuck on needing to fully turn to avoid a collison on final. You don't have to turn totally away, you just need to turn enough to miss. Not only that, but if it is a congested landing area, if you turn more then a few degrees, you may have just cut someone else off, causing a collision, or a snap turn by them, or for them to turn too, cutting someone else off, the scenerios could go on and on.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikeat10500 12 #3 July 21, 2003 I've done very aggressive brake turns(not flat turns) with a Stiletto 150(@1.2:1) very close to the ground and think it can be a useful tool for avoiding obstacles. The canopy's forward speed slows and so does rate of decent. I'm not sure how to safely learn/ teach this skill as not all canopys perform the same. ...mike----------------------------------- Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1 Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #4 July 21, 2003 Yeah...I think the key is knowing all input results of your canopy and how long it takes to recover from any kind of input so that you can land safely afterward. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
katiebear21 0 #5 July 21, 2003 Can you guys clarify the difference between a braked turn and a flat turn? Katie Get your PMS glass necklace here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Clownburner 0 #6 July 21, 2003 QuoteDepending on the scenerio and your altitude (the higher scenerio for instance) you could probably do a rear-riser "climb" to get the clearance needed. Ok, but how do you do that, exactly? QuoteA climbing toggle turn would work too...What about a harness carve out of the way, or even a toggle carve. Same question. One of the issues here is a lack of definitions: What is a climbing toggle turn, exactly? How does a 'toggle carve' differ from a 'toggle turn' or a 'flat turn'? Harness carves are a nice idea for people flying highly responsive canopies. I fly a big, slow, rectangle of nylon at a low (relatively) wing loading. I can harness turn, but it takes a loooooong time - long enough to be completely worthless in the scenario above. QuoteMy point is, that it seems that people are mentally stuck on needing to fully turn to avoid a collison on final. You don't have to turn totally away, you just need to turn enough to miss. Not only that, but if it is a congested landing area, if you turn more then a few degrees, you may have just cut someone else off, causing a collision, or a snap turn by them, or for them to turn too, cutting someone else off, the scenerios could go on and on. I agree. I'm not saying you need to turn 180 to avoid the obstacle, but you DO need to avoid it, either with a turn or with some other manuever... Thanks for the reply but this doesn't really answer the question I was asking...7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez "I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #7 July 21, 2003 I *really* don't want to try to explain those manuevers over the internet...talk to an instructor at your DZ, especially if he/she is a CReW dog, they can give you some drills or take you up on a dive so you really start to learn all the different ways you can control your canopy. You'll end up learning how to make your canopy do things you've never thought it could do! edit: My relunctancy to explain those manuevers over the internet is simply a liability issue. I don't know who will read this and if done low, and done wrong, you can get hurt or dead. If anyone is reading this and would like to know how to do those manuevers, simply chat with an instructor at your DZ that is a good canopy pilot.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #8 July 22, 2003 QuoteLet's say you're in full flight at 70-100 feet, on final approach, and you get cut off. Obviously, you need to make a flat turn to avoid the other jumper. I think a lot of situations like this could have been avoided in the first place if the jumper who got cut off was looking around more. Just because you are on final doesn't mean that someone else won't cut you off. Be aware of what is going on in front of you, behind you and all around you so you can see if someone looks like they are going to cut you off. It is easier to avoid a bad situation then get out of it. Obviously it does happen that people get cut off for whatever reason and then need to react to it. I completely agree with AggieDave that there are a lot of options of what to do other than just flat turns. Also, just because you go into breaks to do a low flat turn does not mean that you have to let them up to land. Flare from half breaks (or don't flare from full breaks) and PLF, that's why it's taught. My thoughts are if you don't have enough time to recover the canopy, don't try. I'd rather get dirty doing a PLF then have my canopy dive me into the ground.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #9 July 22, 2003 Also, let's remember we're flying in 3 dimensions. Just the simple act of pulling both toggles down should reduce your rate of descent and "float" you vertically up from your collision course while you initiate the minimal left/right turn, would it not ? Assuming that whoever cut you off is zipping on by. Hopefully anyone above & behind is paying attention to the near miss going on in front of them, because you're probably not looking behind you at this moment. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,028 #10 July 22, 2003 QuoteQuoteLet's say you're in full flight at 70-100 feet, on final approach, and you get cut off. Obviously, you need to make a flat turn to avoid the other jumper. I think a lot of situations like this could have been avoided in the first place if the jumper who got cut off was looking around more. Just because you are on final doesn't mean that someone else won't cut you off. Be aware of what is going on in front of you, behind you and all around you so you can see if someone looks like they are going to cut you off. It is easier to avoid a bad situation then get out of it. Have to agree with this. A superior pilot is one that uses superior judgement so he doesn't have to use his superior skills. Good planning at 1000ft avoids a host of problems at 50ft.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skr 1 #11 July 25, 2003 I wrote one answer to your questions and put it at http://indra.net/~bdaniels/ftw/c_wings_level.html It's about half way down in the article. Skr Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Designer 0 #12 July 26, 2003 Exactly,very good point! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,008 #13 July 27, 2003 > Can you guys clarify the difference between a braked turn and a flat turn? No difference really; a flat turn is a type of braked turn. A braked turn is any turn where you use some opposite brake to 'flatten' the turn. In a perfect flat turn, you turn through some angle (say, 90 degrees) with minimum loss of altitude, and you come out of it with normal canopy flying speed (i.e. the canopy's not diving at the ground as it is after a normal toggle turn, and it's not going really slowly as it would after you do a practice flare.) The reason a flat turn is important is that, if you do it correctly, you can use it to turn away from another canopy even if you're very low (say, 50 feet) without losing much altitude. Also, since you come out of the turn with normal flying speed, you can flare immediately and get a good flare if you need it. To do a flat turn, you start with one toggle and immediately 'flatten' the turn with the opposite toggle. At the end of the turn put both toggles all the way back up. If you use too little opposite brake, you'll come out with a lot of speed, like a normal toggle turn. If you use too much opposite brake, you'll come out with very little speed, as if you just did a practice flare. Vary the amount of opposite toggle until you can come out of the turn with normal flying speed. (Needless to say this is best practiced above 1000 feet before you need it at 50 feet.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,008 #14 July 27, 2003 >Let's say you're in full flight at 70-100 feet, on final approach, and you get cut off. Well, if you have never practiced flat turn/flare turn manuevers before, one option (not great, but perhaps better than the alternatives) is to run into him. The result (an overtaking collision) will not be pretty, but it might just be better than a toggle turn at 100 feet. There's an old saying in aviation that it's better to land in a forest under control than on a runway out of control, and the same philosophy applies here. The collision might kill you, but under a heavily loaded canopy a toggle turn at 100 feet almost certainly will. For a head-on collision that's not such a great alternative though. The best option if you've practiced it is a flat turn, turning no farther than you need to to avoid him. If you're closer to the ground, you may need to combine this with a flare turn to get a reasonable landing. If you have the speed (i.e. you're recovering from a front riser approach) you might use both brakes to pop over him. This isn't as useful since you're not as manueverable in that dimension, and the canopy/jumper system is taller than it is wide. Of course the usual issues also apply (watching for the errant hook turner, yelling a lot so the cutter-offer can hear you and will look for you, setting up in an area that is not frequented by people who cut you off.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #15 July 27, 2003 QuoteTo do a flat turn, you start with one toggle and immediately 'flatten' the turn with the opposite toggle. At the end of the turn put both toggles all the way back up. Bill is bang on the money. Just remember though that it's better to do a half flare (if you're really low when you use this turn technique which is the reason to learn it) than to let the toggles up and surge the canopy into the ground. Of course the amount of surge is dependant on how deep a flat turn you were doing in the first place. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,008 #16 July 28, 2003 >Just remember though that it's better to do a half flare . . . than to let >the toggles up and surge the canopy into the ground. Good point. If you do come out of the flat turn and you're a little 'slow' (i.e. you used the opposite brake a little too much) then you'll have to hold some brake to keep the canopy from surging after the turn; the surge might just put you in the ground before the canopy can recover. If you're low that means you'll probably be landing in half brakes - you won't have the time to let the canopy recover to normal speed. This will mean less flare power than usual (since you have less speed) so be prepared for a hard landing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Clownburner 0 #17 July 28, 2003 Thanks a lot, this is what I was looking for. Very helpful!!7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez "I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kyros1 0 #18 July 29, 2003 I will vote for flat turns and if you are really close to the ground prepare to flare from where the brakes are. I would suggest you to attend a canopy school were these practises are tought. They will teach you how to land on 1/4 or 1/2 brakes and land safe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
