Object turbulence

[billvon 2,991]

>(\shouting) Ron! Billvon! Hook! come over here.... I found
> your "prime example" of what you are talking about when you say
> we need some kind of regulation / mandatory education....

No need; there are plenty of examples down here that I see every weekend. Often (unfortunately) I also see them carried away in ambulances or helicopters. But never fear; every single one of them is sure (or was sure) they could handle it.

[freeflir29 0]

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So what you are saying is that you do not give a shit about other peoples opinion? So why did you start this thread in the first place?

Well...if you review the thread I didn't ask for anyone's opinion. I started the thread in order to remind the experienced and school the "younger" jumpers on the dangers that lurk on the DZ. However, we seem to be experiencing some "Canopy Nazi" thread creep.


If you skydive, drive a car, get born........you are playing the odds. I'm doing pretty well so far. How many broken bones have you had in your life. I broke all 10 fingers once in a car accident. I wasn't driving. I broke my foot playing basketball. Pretty sure I cracked my tail bone during a no flare landing at 27 jumps. Lost a toggle. Got hit by shrapnel once in the leg. Ummm....that's pretty much my list of major injuries. Considering my life experience that's a DAMN short list. I tend to manage risk very well thank you.

[mikkey 0]

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Well...if you review the thread I didn't ask for anyone's opinion. I started the thread in order to remind the experienced and school the "younger" jumpers on the dangers that lurk on the DZ. However, we seem to be experiencing some "Canopy Nazi" thread creep.

So, you don't want anybodies opinion - but you want to "school the younger jumpers" about the dangers..... hmmmmm
Also, I find the "Canopy Nazi" label quite offensive (I know it is not something you have come up with). So people who are concerned about people killing themselves due to high WL are Nazis? Some history lessons would be in place for a few people.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[apoil 0]

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Well...Opinions are like assholes. All I'll say is that people on this site also repeatedly told me I was going to kill myself when I bought my Stiletto at 130 some jumps. I took it slow...learned the canopy well. In fact....I'm probably more dangerous on it now than I was 100 jumps ago. I have kinda lost respect for it because I have 200+ jumps on it. That landing last weekend was the first time in a year or so that I haven't stood up a landing.

I don't really start to know a canopy until 300 or 400 jumps. I downsized after 1100+ on my last canopy and there was still plenty of untapped potential.

So, it may still be that you are going to kill yourself. Your words are dangerous. Losing respect after 200+. That's when you should be gaining respect for it. If it isn't scaring you then you aren't flying it hard, which may save be the thing that saves your life.

[freeflir29 0]

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I downsized after 1100+ on my last canopy and there was still plenty of untapped potential.

Yeah....but what was your loading/Canopy type verses number of jumps? A Stiletto 170 loaded at 1.25 ish at 350+ jumps is fairly conservative I think.

[diverdriver 5]

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I downsized after 1100+ on my last canopy and there was still plenty of untapped potential.

Yeah....but what was your loading/Canopy type verses number of jumps? A Stiletto 170 loaded at 1.25 ish at 350+ jumps is fairly conservative I think.

I don't think it's conservative at all.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[freeflir29 0]

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I don't think it's conservative at all.

What do you want. A round? LOL. That Stiletto will Literally fly slower than a massive bus student canopy when you get on the rear risers.

[diverdriver 5]

PMd

[LawnDart21 0]

I'll step up and defend Clay here, a 135 elliptical (x-braced or not) loaded 1.6ish isn't extreme, even at such a low jump number, if you are sensible and heads up. Can the canopy get the best of you?, absolutely, but you already know that. My only question is why the heck you would shell out the extra money for a cross braced 135 at 1.6 when at your jump numbers you probably would get similar performance out of an non x braced elliptical for much less $$, and then in 100s of jumps, well in your case, perhaps 50 jumps...lol, downsize again to a real x-brace canopy loaded appropriately (2.0) for swooping. (I say that knowing that like me, you are swoop fiend, and it just seems like a waste of extra cash on a crossbrace that will add minimal results at a 1.6 loading. It just seems like more of a "hey, I jump a crossbrace" thing, tahn anythingelse, but I of course don't know all the details, this is just my unsolicited opinion....lol.....and we all know what opinions are like.....lol........Just my .02) Stay safe up there, that's all anyone can ask. Blue ones!

-Tom

[freeflir29 0]

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It just seems like more of a "hey, I jump a crossbrace" thing, tahn anythingelse

Nope...that actually has NOTHING to do with the decision at all. I want the canopy for it's flight/opening characteristics. I could care less about wether it's cross braced or not.

[billvon 2,991]

>A Stiletto 170 loaded at 1.25 ish at 350+ jumps is fairly conservative I think.

No, it's not. I mean, compared to the guy who wanted a Stiletto 97 on his 39th jump it is, but compared to most reasonable canopy progressions (i.e. those without formal training) it's pushing it. Push your luck if you like, but don't do it thinking you are making the conservative decision.

[Ron 10]

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Yeah....but what was your loading/Canopy type verses number of jumps? A Stiletto 170 loaded at 1.25 ish
at 350+ jumps is fairly conservative I think.

Nope it is not conservative.

It is (I think) a good WL to be at at 350 jumps, but it is NOT conservative.

1.4 would be Max I would recomend.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Well...if you review the thread I didn't ask for anyone's opinion. I started the thread in order to remind the
experienced and school the "younger" jumpers on the dangers that lurk on the DZ. However, we seem to
be experiencing some "Canopy Nazi" thread creep.

And this is the same reason that we "Canopy Nazi's" jump on stuff like this. Guy that think they have it and that show the warning signs of becoming a divot.

BTW I don't mind being called a "Canopy Nazi"...Other than I don't really like the NAZI part.....And I am more of an all around Safety Nazi....But the only time people don't seem to listen is when it comes to Canopy flight.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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I'll step up and defend Clay here, a 135 elliptical (x-braced or not) loaded 1.6ish isn't extreme, even at
such a low jump number, if you are sensible and heads up.

Yeah it is.

I have 3,000 jumps and I am at 1.68...I have jumped up to 2.6...And I found the 1.68 to be very extreme still.

It is this attitude that makes 300 jump wonders think it is ok to go 1.5-1.6 ish at such low jump numbers. And this attitude is what caused many jumpers to fly a good canopy to their deaths....Look at the fatality reports. 300 jumps 1.5 wingload.

Can it be done safely? Yes. With instruction and common sense.

However a good number of people don't have the common sense, and most don't seek instruction.

I just lost another friend to a hook turn....He thought he had it under control as they all did.

Why is it that everyone thinks they are canopy gods?

I have yet to find one person that will not take advice about freefall...But will go to arms if you try to tell them about canopies.

Just because you have landing it fine so far is not indicative that you know what you are doing.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[parachutist 2]

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That Stiletto will Literally fly slower than a massive bus student canopy when you get on the rear risers.

Use of rear risers does not slow down your forward speed much at all before the canopy stalls. that's why swoopers land using their rear risers, then transfer to brake toggles.

A poster explaining your 3 main canopy controls and their effects:
http://www.funjump.com/photos/Canopy_Controls.jpg

Chris

[freeflir29 0]

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Use of rear risers does not slow down your forward speed much at all before the canopy stalls.

Hmmm...interesting statement. Especially funny since I have been within reaching distance of a big canopy on the rear risers. Actually able to go slower forward and lose less altitude than the big canopy. Let up on them and I drop faster hav a faster forward speed. *Shrug*

[Ron 10]

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Hmmm...interesting statement. Especially funny since I have been within reaching distance of a big canopy
on the rear risers. Actually able to go slower forward and lose less altitude than the big canopy. Let up on
them and I drop faster hav a faster forward speed

How would it slow you down?

It will, but only a little before it stalls. You are only changing the attitude of the wing, and the glide slope. This is why it is a recomended long spot recovery trick. It increases your glide slope, but does not slow you down as much as brakes.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhreeZone 20]

Clay... you need to go do CRW before you downsize. You've got some pretty big misunderstandings of flight inputs that are easily cleared up after about 10 CRW jumps. Like there are two points in front riser dives, point one increases your forward speed and your sink, point two only increases your sink and does'nt help on the speed. Untill you've been there and seen it on a canopy its hard to believe.

I used to think I knew what all inputs my canopy needed till I took up CRW. Then its a whole new ball game.

I think Chris knows his stuff since he helped me learn CRW

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[freeflir29 0]

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I used to think I knew what all inputs my canopy needed till I took up CRW. Then its a whole new ball game.

CRW definately teaches you tons about what the inputs actually do. I guess you can compare most canopy flights with a solo skydive. If you don't have a reference.....you really don't know where you are going.

[LawnDart21 0]

I totally see your point Ron, and "sort of" agree with you in certain respects, but I am gonna stand by my statement, in that I think 1.6ish isn't really extreme if the pilot A) knows the risks, B) accepts the risks, C) has a good attitude (isnt a hotdog or a wanna be skygod and D) has recieved proper instruction. That said, I am very sorry about your friend. I agree that too many jumpers are being killed under good canopies and it is definitely an issue. Many people, (myself included 700 jumps ago) think that they are the excpetion to the rule and can manage smaller canopies with low jump numbers. I am a firm believer that 99% of success in our sport, specifically under canopy, is about managing risk. The other 1% is either dumb luck or fate, I havent figured that part out yet. But canopy piloting at any wingloading is about risk management. Reduce your risk to the lowest denominator you are comfortable with and then evaluate what you want to do versus what you can safely do. Right or wrong, I was under a 120 vengeance at WL1.8 at 400 jumps. I asked everyone I could find for advice/input, then went to Evolution canopy flight school to learn from the pros. I never lost respect for the canopies I was flying and always used my head. I'm approaching 1000 jumps this month, and have my last 100 or so jumps on a 105 loaded 2.1. 500 jumps ago I would have thought a 2.1 loading was extreme, and in that context, it was, now its just "normal" to me. Alls I was saying was that any size canopy can kill, and in the grand scheme of things, a 36 jump jumper wanting a 97, thats extreme, but a 300ish jump jumper, under proper supervision under a 1.6 isn't (in my mind) really extreme, I agree its not the brightest thing, but its (for better or worse) not that extreme these days.

-Tom

[Ron 10]

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Many people, (myself included 700 jumps ago) think that they are the
excpetion to the rule and can manage smaller canopies with low jump numbers

The problem is when these people think they are the exeption to the rule, and don't

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A) knows the risks,

They think it will not happen to them.

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B) accepts the risks,

Again why accept them if they don't think they will screw up?

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C)
has a good attitude (isnt a hotdog or a wanna be skygod

Most don't, or I would not see an issue.

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D) has recieved proper instruction.

Most don't...After all they are the exception right?

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I was under a 120 vengeance at
WL1.8 at 400 jumps. I asked everyone I could find for advice/input, then went to Evolution canopy flight
school to learn from the pros. I never lost respect for the canopies I was flying and always used my head.

And this is why I don't have an issue with you.

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I never lost respect for the canopies I was flying and always used my head

But as freeflir29 said:

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This turbulence REALLY caught me off guard. It wasn't even that windy out. Probably not over 15MPH. Just a bad area and the perfectly WRONG conditions I guess.

And

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I Came fairly close to getting broken on jump #3. Started a 270 hook. Had to turn harder than I wanted to because of traffic. About 200 degrees into it the riser pressure got too damn high and I had to let up. So I bled some speed off but now I'm pretty low. I gave the left front another small pull to finish off the turn.

so he let traffic screw his hook up, and then when low still used his riser...And all this was in an area that he should have known had turbulance.

Then he says

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Loading currently around 1.25-1.3 depending on how much crap I ate that particular week. It's not
THAT big of a jump really. Only 35 square feet.

I think 35 square feet is a big jump...You?

Then he says

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I'm a good canopy pilot and if I break myself. You have my full permission to say "I told you
so." Even if it is over my coffin. I really don't care....you have to die of something

sounds like he has a bad attitude about saftey to me.

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Well...Opinions are like assholes. All I'll say is that people on this site also repeatedly told me I was
going to kill myself when I bought my Stiletto at 130 some jumps. I took it slow...learned the canopy
well. In fact....I'm probably more dangerous on it now than I was 100 jumps ago. I have kinda lost
respect for it because I have 200+ jumps on it.

does not sound like he listens well, and it looks like he does not respect the wing...After all he has 200 jumps on it..He is an EXPERT now.

And from this he still does not truely understand all the flight controls.

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That Stiletto will Literally fly slower than a massive bus student canopy when you get on the rear
risers.

And I personally think that a 1.6 is still extreme...The laws of physics have not changed. Perception has, and the accepted norm has with it. But it is still as extreme as it was when it was first jumped by you. You just don't see it as hard as it was.

Not everyone is you, and most think they don't need to listen to instruction.

So with respect, I still see 1.6 as extreme for someone with 300 jumps....when you think about it...A guy with 300 jumps has only landed a canopy 300 times. 300 times is not really much is it?

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[LawnDart21 0]

You make a good pitch Ron, I see your point, and I'm changing my vote. 1.6 is extreme in that context. For each of my arguements against it, you have some pretty compelling points I'll give you credit where credit is due. Score;
Ron:1 Tom:0
You know I think I'm fortunate in that my DZ while large for a northeast DZ has a family feel to it and we have generation after generation of up jumpers looking out for each other, offering input, suggestions and ass chewings in the name of safety at the drop of a hat. I spend every free minute I have on the dropzone with the new up jumpers talking canopy saftey and progression objectives. My standing line is that a typical jumper can figure out how to fly a canopy well in 10-20 jumps, but that they can spend the next 200-500 jumps learning its envelope of performance and encourage them to do just that. I always try to remind them that the ground is hard, and best approached with caution.

Have a safe swooping weekend to all! I am ouuta here! Off to the DZ, 40+ tandems tomorrow, yahoo!
(all this talk about downsizing, and I'm gonna spend all day under a SET 400......lol.....ironic.! Peace.)

[freeflir29 0]

Hmmm...I can see that this could go on forever. You weren't there. I said "pretty low" as in I can still use a riser but don't get in it hard. I didn't....I made a small input to finish the turn. Sliding in on my ass didn't have anything to do with the input. It had to do with the turbulence. I had landed within 30 ft or so of that same spot on 2 previous jumps in the last couple of hours. I had judged it to still be safe enough to land there. The turbulence had gotten worse since my last jump and it damn near bit me in the ass. My mistake was not having enough sense to land on the other side of the runway. I don't think I made any mistakes regarding control input. I might could have toggled turned during the initial turn and then finished with risers. Who knows...that may have been better but I don't think what I did was a mistake or dangerous as far as control input. That's my opinion anyway......