PhreeZone 20 #26 June 13, 2003 Read up on blast handles. They have a striking similarity to the soft handle arguement. They were wanted since they were hard to accidently pull, but in the end they caused a few fatilities due to people not operating them correctly. The USPA banned their use and everyone started using other means of reserve ripcord deployment in the future. Huge fight at the time and many nasty letters to Parachutist (I read a bunch from the 70's)over it since some people liked their blast handles. USPA stood their ground on the issue and it prevented fatilities due to that piece of gear.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #27 June 13, 2003 QuoteLets find a way to keep it from happening again. Thats one way to prevent similar fatalities. Safe landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lauril 0 #28 June 13, 2003 QuoteNext thing you know, they will ban pull-outs,collapsible pilot chutes,tinted goggles,chewing gum,etc. No.because there's no need to, it was banned because it exeeds the maximum pulling force of 10 kg. (without peeling) QuoteFirst peal, then Pull ! (makes a huge difference) It does yes, but afterall she was an experienced jumper, I think she would have pulled if she could... When the shit hits the fan, things aren't always going as planned... And the ripcords are banned 'til further notice, they will publish another safety bulletin as soon as the investigation is finished...So they aren't necessarily banned for good... - Lauri Edit to add a link to the translated bulletin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #29 June 13, 2003 Ask those guys about details if official invetigation is closed! She might have had other problems too. I dont have fisrt hand info, but this case is not so simple. Safe landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #30 June 13, 2003 "I agree. There are no "bad" (in that way) hard handles though. " Just the ones that catch on doors and wrap your reserve around the tail, especially if you are unfamiliar with the particular aircraft.. I guess if I lived in Finland, or wanted to party with my Scandinavian chums, I'd just bite the bullet and change the handles over, in this instance, its either play by the rules or don't play at all. Pros and cons of handle design have been discussed here ad nauseum, so I'm not going to start justifying my gear setup decisions. Suffice to say this situation is what regulation does.....Pay attention all who are crying for wingload BSRs......-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #31 June 13, 2003 My reserve puff is super skinny, and double velcro'd. It was built that way after I had a premature in the door on a 4 way climbout. I wanted it hard to pull. First time I needed it I REALLY needed to pull hard, and it took some hand strength. That doesn't bother me much, as I'm a climber and have strong fingers/hands. I put mating velcro on the one side though, and the 2 times I've needed it since then have been efortless. Sorry to hear about the grounding of puffs. It seems a bit quick - the incident was recent, no? Wait a while till a plane crashes because of a premature. Then they'll change it back again. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grega 0 #32 June 13, 2003 Quote A premature reserve deployment is better than no reserve deployment. One is survivable, the other is not. Hmm not really if you are in a big way, base tumbles and your reserve is accidently deployed directly below somebody. he can tear it apart and in collision kills himself and you... and this is the reserve that is teared apart. if you "Accidently" survive the collision you can cut it with hook knife, but all you have is a main, that was probably packed in 5 minutes by a packer and you can only hope everything will be fine. That's why i like soft reserve handle much more. About beeing hard to pull the soft reserve ripcord. if you are not that phisicaly strong (sorry weak girls) i don't think you should be skydiving at all. it's an extreme sport whether you like it or not. i never saw a week girl climbing, because she simply can't. it's exactly the same with skydiving. skydiving is not like riding a bike and never will be. About being knocked unconscious, why did they invent cypres for then? "George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #33 June 13, 2003 "A premature reserve deployment is better than no reserve deployment. One is survivable, the other is not. " Really? In the door of a 182 with your back to the strut? tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #34 June 13, 2003 Everyone keeps tossing out situations that involve the reserve being pulled accidently with a hard handle, but I've seen it happen with a soft handle too. Installing a soft handle suddenly does not make you immune to having your reserve accidently deployed.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
btucker 0 #35 June 13, 2003 One of my team mates told me about a severe injury at her old DZ in the US: Two jumpers doing head down had a hard dock, one jumper's reserve handle was snagged, thus deploying his reserve while headdown {yikes}. I think a personal decision - depending on your discipline and experience. Blues Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #36 June 13, 2003 I am not everyone. I said I had had one with a hard handle and changed to a soft handle after that. I've not had an accidental reserve deployment since then. Some people are putting apocalyptic views out there when you're injured and on the edge of consiousness. If you're that fucked, or think you may be - get a Cypres. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #37 June 13, 2003 >Hmm not really if you are in a big way, base tumbles and your > reserve is accidently deployed directly below somebody. That's happened to a dive I was on. He survived; most people do in that situation. No one survives an unpullable reserve handle when you need your reserve (unless they have a Cypres.) >if you are not that phisicaly strong (sorry weak girls) i don't think >you should be skydiving at all. Kate Cooper doesn't have much grip strength; she often grip-switches in the base of a big way so other people are holding on to _her_. Will you tell her she should not be skydiving? Is she an example of someone who should not be in the sport? >i never saw a week girl climbing, because she simply can't. it's >exactly the same with skydiving. As I know several "weak" people who are pretty good skydivers - some of whom are known around the world - I'd say it's not exactly the same. Skydiving is not a sport of strength. >About being knocked unconscious, why did they invent cypres for then? To save people who don't pull. Historically, about 90% of cypres saves are due to people forgetting to pull, not people who are unconscious (although everyone claims that's why they buy them.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #38 June 13, 2003 >Really? In the door of a 182 with your back to the strut? Yes. You are more likely to survive a premature reserve opening, even during a bad position on exit, than hitting the ground at 120mph because you cannot get your reserve handle out. The basis of your question is "isn't it better to have a hard to activate reserve instead of an easy to activate reserve?" and I have to disagree with that as a blanket statement. It requires a tradeoff - a reserve that is easy to pull when you need it, but one that still remains secure when you don't want it deployed. Hard handles are not very easy to accidentally deploy; in your example, there is nothing on a 182 strut that is likely to pull a hard reserve handle. By the same token, soft reserve handles are not 100% secure; just a few weeks ago we had a story in incidents about a jumper who accidentally pulled another jumper's soft handle (cutaway, not reserve, but same idea.) Both can be made to work. Good soft cutaway handles, ones that have stiffeners, moderate velcro peel forces and a finger pocket, can work well. The Telesis student rigs are a good example of low velcro forces (on their cutaway handle) and the Strong cutaway handle is a good example of how to add a good pocket to a soft handle. There are also hybrids, like soft loops. I think you should use any handle that you are both comfortable with and passes the pull force test; beyond that, it's whatever works for you. I hope, though, people do not choose handles that are hard to use without thinking about what that might mean to them in freefall at 700 feet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #39 June 14, 2003 For any girls reading this and are worried that they may not be able to pull either thier cutaway or reserve soft handle here is what I did. Get a small peice of hook velcro about 1/4-1/2 inch long the width of the velcro on you cutaway handle. Place it at the bottom of the handle, this will make it easier to peal the handle since the velcro is already "started". I've had one cutaway this way and had no issue pealing the handle.Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #40 June 14, 2003 I used the metal handle when I had my cut-away (student gear). One of the things I recall, specifically, is having to run my left hand around for it. I was able to locate it without seeing it because of the distinct difference between metal and harness feel. I got my thumb through it, wrapped my fingers around my hand, and, in the proper order, handled my situation correctly. I haven't changed it out, and don't think I will. I don't see a need, at my level, to switch something that had worked for me. That being said... I also don't think there's any need to regulate one v. the other. It, as with anything, seems to be more personal choice. I choose one, someone else chooses another. (And just as a curiousity point, didn't our very own Sebazz get his softie knocked out recently? Or was it a metal ring? I can't recall and don't have the time to search it out.). Anyway, that's just this girl's opinion. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #41 June 14, 2003 Quote I was able to locate it without seeing it Just out of interest, were you actively looking for it with your eyes, or just feeling?____________________ Say no to subliminal messages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #42 June 14, 2003 Sebazz was accused of pulling someones cutaway pillow in a funnel.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #43 June 14, 2003 monkey...she's got boob's, it's a little hard for women to SEE there handles, unless they have smaller boobs than me.marc Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mad47 0 #44 June 14, 2003 I never thought about this before we started to launch 8-way chunks (5 people out, 3 people in) from Otter. When the outside center gets into position, the lower portion of his rig aims directly into my reserve handle. Obviously, the only way to minimize the chances of premature reserve deployment is to protect the handle with left wrist or elbow. However, by doing this before taking a grip I take extra few seconds and also create some movement that makes the life of the person behind me more difficult (right, Rob?)). I think a soft reserve handle would be more secure and comfortable in this situation. Just my 2 cents Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdog07 0 #45 June 14, 2003 I had soft & hard handle cutaway, my reflex has d handle, voodoo soft handle, but they both have cypres. the new small soft handle the one company sell i well never get,"A peaceful heart leads to a healthy body; jealousy is like cancer in the bones ..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #46 June 15, 2003 >I had soft & hard handle cutaway, my reflex has d handle, voodoo > soft handle, but they both have cypres . . . What does a cypres have to do with reserve handle selection? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdog07 0 #47 June 17, 2003 i think the if she had a cypres she may be still alive"A peaceful heart leads to a healthy body; jealousy is like cancer in the bones ..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #48 June 17, 2003 If she skipped that jump she could be alive. Does it make any sense? Safe landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #49 June 17, 2003 Quotesoft pillow - safer in general, why would you say this? I see the metal handle as safer."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #50 June 17, 2003 Hi i meant safer as in less likely to get pulled by mistake in the plane or while falling. metal is safer if you look at it from the "easy to locate/pull" point of view. i have a metal one and i prefer it like that due to all of the reasons specified in the previous posts. O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
