pilot chute in tow procedure

[davelepka 4]

Quote

I had a PCIT once due to a tightly packed Lightning 176 in my regular rig, combined with a smallish pilot chute. I had over 400 jumps at the time.
When I pulled nothing happened. I quickly realised what was going on, beat the crap out of my rig with my elbows and found myself under an inflated canopy before I could think 'ouch'.

Just to clarify for others, a Lightning is a CReW canopy, which means that you would do a full altitude clear-and-pull in order to be open right away and begin building canopy formations.

So when he describes elbowing his rig to dislodge a PC in tow, he would have been a 10k ft or higher, and had plenty of time for that maneuver.

A PC in tow down at normal pull altitude is another story. You will not have much time at all, and spending it trying to dislodge the PC in tow by jabbing your rig with your elbow is not an 'official' or 'approved' method of solving that problem. A mis-routed bridle or similar problem will never be 'fixed' and you would still be at terminal while wasting time doing something besides your EPs.

[popsjumper 2]

I prefer to have control of the main for a bit longer than an automatic breakaway. I like to keep as many options open whenever possible...never to throw one away unnecessarily.
When you automatically breakaway first, that's what you are doing...unnecessarily.

If you prefer to discard the main first thing..all is well, it's one of two viable options.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

grue

***We've recently seen a vid of the main being the saving factor after an entanglement because he still had connection to the main risers....and avoiding an entry in the blue skies forum.

have a link perchance?

Sorry, grue...I cannot find it.

Surely somebody out there remembers the fairly recent posting about the two-out entanglement where the mess was separated out and it was the main that finally inflated and landed.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Baksteen 84]

davelepka

Quote

I had a PCIT once due to a tightly packed Lightning 176 in my regular rig, combined with a smallish pilot chute. I had over 400 jumps at the time.
When I pulled nothing happened. I quickly realised what was going on, beat the crap out of my rig with my elbows and found myself under an inflated canopy before I could think 'ouch'.

Just to clarify for others, a Lightning is a CReW canopy, which means that you would do a full altitude clear-and-pull in order to be open right away and begin building canopy formations.

So when he describes elbowing his rig to dislodge a PC in tow, he would have been a 10k ft or higher, and had plenty of time for that maneuver.

A PC in tow down at normal pull altitude is another story. You will not have much time at all, and spending it trying to dislodge the PC in tow by jabbing your rig with your elbow is not an 'official' or 'approved' method of solving that problem. A mis-routed bridle or similar problem will never be 'fixed' and you would still be at terminal while wasting time doing something besides your EPs.

Oops.. thank you for correcting my omission.
At the time I was doing a jump from 6k and was saddled out at 5k (about ten seconds of freefall) but Dave's point remains very much true. Had I jumped from 3500 feet and/or had I been jumping my Freefall canopy which ever has given me any trouble, I'd have wasted no time at all.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[NorrinRadd 0]

During my ground class I was taught to deploy the reserve chute without cutting away.

Why drive myself crazy trying to be normal, when I am already at crazy?

[popsjumper 2]

NorrinRadd

During my ground class I was taught to deploy the reserve chute without cutting away.

So...as a student at crunch time, do you think you would have been confused or delayed in action by having different ways to handle different mals?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

ILUVCHUTERS

We also teach cutaway first, for the same reason - one procedure is best at that stage - and then as students become novices, we have discusisons with them on EPs and how they may "evolve".

One procedure...how far does that go?
Does it include low-altitude problems, say below a designated threshold?
Does it exclude any decision making efforts?
Do you teach one method for every mal?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[NorrinRadd 0]

popsjumper

***During my ground class I was taught to deploy the reserve chute without cutting away.

So...as a student at crunch time, do you think you would have been confused or delayed in action by having different ways to handle different mals?
I cannot answer that with confidence, though standing on the ground it seems reasonably unconfusing. I am a student, but I have not had to deal with the situation. That said, my instructor has deeply impressed upon us the importance of doing dirt dive practices with all the malfunction procedures until it IS a muscle memory kinda thing. He also said that this practice should continue not just as a student, but throughout the time we are involved with the sport.
Edit:
It also seems to me that part of instruction should include the proper recognition and identification of the various malfunctions that can occur, and knowing what is the best procedure to use for them. I personally prefer being given all the tools I need to make good decisions, especially life-saving decisions. Does that make it a little more complicated? Initially, yes it does. But over the long-run I think it also creates a much sounder basis for decision-making. This is the way I feel about most things in life. Human brains are for the most part adequately equipped to learn and react in fairly complex situations, and I am not sure this qualifies as a complex situation. Pilot chute in tow, from what I have seen (without experiencing them myself), seem pretty easy to identify. And the decision on which handle to pull... left, or right then left... seems fairly straightforward too.

Why drive myself crazy trying to be normal, when I am already at crazy?

[ILUVCHUTERS 1]

One procedure...how far does that go? I teach first jump course, and once people are solo licensed, and then working towards their A, B licences, we have discussions with them when doing EP endorsements about how proceedures "may" change. We encourage them to ask questions, do their homework, and really think about possible scenarios, decisions, and outcomes. The important thing is to make as educated of decisions as possible, and really understand that during a mal, especially a high-speed mal, there is not a lot of time and altitude to mess around with "should I do this, or this?" Have your procedure and stick to it. Different situations may call for a bit of a decision-tree type process, though, for example - a hung up toggle for someone with 20 jumps may be a cut away - they may not be proficient or even have practiced landing on rears right away, but for someone with more jumps, landing on rears may be an option. So that is a decision that evolves with experience, and also may depend on the situation.

I was reading another thread about the cutaway from blown brake lines and how one of the posters had the same thing, and got them fixed, but shortly thereafter had to cut again due to some other unseen problem. So some may choose to land that, some may choose to cut away. Whatever your decision is, stick to that decision. A PIT is even more important due to the high rate of speed. In that previously scenario, you're (probably) under an open canopy, so you're no longer falling out of the sky at 120 MPH, and you need to react.

Does it include low-altitude problems, say below a designated threshold? We IAD our first jump course students, so they are taught at "check canopy" that is decision making time. Do you land your main, or do you go to reserve?

Does it exclude any decision making efforts? Sorry, Popsjumper, not sure I get this question... (it's Monday morning and I'm a bit slow today
Do you teach one method for every mal? During FJC, yes, we do.

[popsjumper 2]

NorrinRadd

That said, my instructor has deeply impressed upon us the importance of doing dirt dive practices with all the malfunction procedures until it IS a muscle memory kinda thing. He also said that this practice should continue not just as a student, but throughout the time we are involved with the sport.

Good stuff from your AFFI.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

ILUVCHUTERS

Does it include low-altitude problems, say below a designated threshold? We IAD our first jump course students, so they are taught at "check canopy" that is decision making time. Do you land your main, or do you go to reserve?

Your one procedure...does that include cutaway and deploy the reserve if you find yourself at, or below decision altitude, and/or below 1000ft.

Quote

Does it exclude any decision making efforts? Sorry, Popsjumper, not sure I get this question... (it's Monday morning and I'm a bit slow today

Quote

Do you teach one method for every mal? During FJC, yes, we do.

One procedure has been touted as simpler for students because it eliminates decision-making at crunch time.
Does it exclude ALL decision-making at crunch time?

I'm seeing some conflict here...surely you give them options to handle line twists, slow-openers, stuck slider, etc. If you do, then that pretty much weakens the one-procedure philosophy. You're giving them decision-making requirements. It's confusing that one would provide options in one area and not provide the options in another. Iin that respect, what is the problem with teaching them to handle the other mals properly in the first place instead of having to go back, re-teach and re-drill?

Really, how few situations are there that should have immediate reserve deployment, so why deny them that information in the first place?

(Note: The PCIT discussion does not apply here. Either way is acceptable so that doesn't figure in here.)

Give us something mo9re solid than simply "makes it simpler for students".

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

No...I'm not trying to get you to change...your business is your business.

I'm trying, once again, to get a grasp on understanding any benefit of using the partial procedure for all teaching.
It has never been justified sufficiently to warrant anyone to go that route. Hell, who knows, if it can be justified, we ALL might to that approach.

And, IMO, in some situations it could be fatal.
If your reserve fails, you have no other options...you're cooked.
If you still had your main, you'd have one more chance to live through it all so why blindly throw away that chance for the sake of an un-proven philosophy?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[potatoman 0]

And there is always chance for the PIC in tow, to pull the pin/bag out due to increased drag from going for the handles.

I have seen un-cocked PC still pull the bag out, for full deployment, just takes a bit longer.

So, yet another variable to worry about. As you reach for the silver, the pin/bag goes. In such a case, probably better off doing the red/silver...... Catchy 22.

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

[popsjumper 2]

potatoman

And there is always chance for the PIC in tow, to pull the pin/bag out due to increased drag from going for the handles.

Increased drag??? I sure don't understand that. Drag from what?

Quote

So, yet another variable to worry about. As you reach for the silver, the pin/bag goes. In such a case, probably better off doing the red/silver...... Catchy 22.

what's the difference in your mentioned "drag" between reaching for breakaway and reaching for reserve deployment?

The Catch 22 comes in because you could wind up with a main/reserve entanglement using either method.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[potatoman 0]

when you reach for the handles, your body has less drag, but increased speed ads to drag on the pc.

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

[ILUVCHUTERS 1]

popsjumper

Does it include low-altitude problems, say below a designated threshold? We IAD our first jump course students, so they are taught at "check canopy" that is decision making time. Do you land your main, or do you go to reserve? Your one procedure...does that include cutaway and deploy the reserve if you find yourself at, or below decision altitude, and/or below 1000ft.

Why be there? Make your decision at check thousand and stick with your decision at check thousand. Those who need to make a decision below 1000’ should have done something long beforehand…. If you had a bad day and are below 1000’ with a situation, you really need to get more nylon above your head and maybe your day will get better.

Quote

Does it exclude any decision making efforts?

Do you teach one method for every mal?

One procedure has been touted as simpler for students because it eliminates decision-making at crunch time.
Does it exclude ALL decision-making at crunch time?

I'm seeing some conflict here...surely you give them options to handle line twists, slow-openers, stuck slider, etc. If you do, then that pretty much weakens the one-procedure philosophy. You're giving them decision-making requirements. It's confusing that one would provide options in one area and not provide the options in another. Iin that respect, what is the problem with teaching them to handle the other mals properly in the first place instead of having to go back, re-teach and re-drill?

Really, how few situations are there that should have immediate reserve deployment, so why deny them that information in the first place?

(Note: The PCIT discussion does not apply here. Either way is acceptable so that doesn't figure in here.)

Give us something mo9re solid than simply "makes it simpler for students".

FJC – KISS for Students on the FJC. Additional EP Information is taught as they move through AFF Training. There is an EPR-Solo done for the Solo CoP and an EPR-A done for the A CoP. Learning never stops and Instructors should be reinforcing the Must-Knows for the Skydiver at their stage of development and tailor those Must-Knows to the Skydiver at hand (some are more switched on than others). Also, line twists, slow slider, etc. are "nuisances" not "malfunctions, and yes, we teach them how to deal with those.

I certainly don't have all the answers, and really, in skydiving, few things are 100% black and white. I'm not a senior instructor by any means with only about 3 years teaching FJC and just having got my JM recently, so if I'm ever confused about something I talk with people more senior than I and get ideas, thoughts, etc.

[popsjumper 2]

OK.
Thanks for the reply.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239