Solo jump, other jumpers awareness

[dmitry26 0]

I am new in the sport (have only 24 jumps so far) so my question might seems naive for some of you. Still...

I know that for safety reasons it is essential to be aware of other people in the sky, but I found difficult or impossible to see other people / groups when I do solo jump. I do see them after opening but not during free fall. I am checking immediate surrounding just before and straight after / during opening but it takes me a few seconds to find others. BTW usually they are tandems and jump over 10 sec after me.

Can you comment please?

[masher 1]

I've only seen one bunch of people in freefall while I was in freefall, and that was because I exited and then turned and watched them leave the plane, and watched them all the way down.

For the rest of it, you have to rely on exit seperation and tracking.

I haven't been involved in any close calls, so I can't comment on that from experience. I do think that there was a double fatality in Nagambie at Easter that was due to impropper exit procedures. I'll have to check on the conclusions from that investigation.

--
Arching is overrated - Marlies

[CanuckInUSA 0]

In time you will occasionally see the other groups in freefall, but not on every jump. What's important to remember is to first give the group ahead of you the appropriate amount of seperation (I like the 45 degree angle, others prefer some time based system which doesn't take wind into consideration). But also try to do all your maneuvers perpedicular to the flight line. This is less important when doing belly jumps (except for tracking which makes it important). But when doing a freefly jump, it's so much easier to fly into another group's airspace if you're not careful.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[mccordia 74]

A couple of weeks ago, a student exited before me (practicing his tracking), and instead of doing it away from the line of flight, he was tracking towards me.
Thank god his tracking sucked, and I spotted him early.
There was a 10 second interval between his exit and mine, but he's a small floaty person.
Exit was a 9000 ft....around 4000 ft I spotted a small dot beneath me, moving directly towards/below me.
I cursed a bit, turned 90 degrees and tracked away....

We had a talk lateron, and he realised what he had done, and had gotten quite a scare when he saw me go by a couple of hundred meters further away while he was opening...

People doing solo stuff (students tracking, or people learning sit/headdown) can go all over the sky...if you don't trust someone..wait longer, and keep an eye out for them in freefall...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[dmitry26 0]

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...if you don't trust someone..wait longer, and keep an eye out for them in freefall...

That was exactly my point, how do you keep an eye out for others? Just look for a small dots under you or you don't really bother too much when you have a lot of separation.

[riggerrob 643]

If you gave them sufficient separation on exit, you should not have to worry about other jumpers.
If you are leaving 8 to 10 seconds between groups. you SHOULD be so far away that it is difficult to see them.
These days I have difficulty seeing anyone else in freefall except for the brightly coloured drogues of other tandems.

[kallend 2,028]

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In time you will occasionally see the other groups in freefall, but not on every jump. What's important to remember is to first give the group ahead of you the appropriate amount of seperation (I like the 45 degree angle, others prefer some time based system which doesn't take wind into consideration). .

The 45 degree angle system DOES NOT WORK!!! Do not rely on this method for exit separation.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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The 45 degree angle system DOES NOT WORK!!! Do not rely on this method for exit separation.

Care to elborate? I don't think the time based system works because of the upper winds. Maybe a combination of the two is ideal. But if I simple count to five and exit, I'm not taking into consideration that the uppers may be hauling ass and I'll fall right on top of the group in front of me.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 3,008]

>Care to elborate?

It simply does not work.

1. Jumpers never reach 45 degrees from the aircraft door perspective; what people perceive as 45 degrees varies from person to person, so it's very subjective.

2. The angle doesn't change with winds.

3. The angle thing makes you leave earlier after freeflyers, and you need more, not less, separation from them.

>I don't think the time based system works because of the upper winds.

Count to six and go. Add one second for every 10 kts of wind at altitude. (for an otter and an into-the wind jump run.) Or just look out the door and go when you've covered 1000 feet.

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

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The 45 degree angle system DOES NOT WORK!!! Do not rely on this method for exit separation.

Care to elborate? I don't think the time based system works because of the upper winds.

We jump from a King Air, because of the forward speed of the jumpers on exit and the forward throw, the 45 degree thing never works. On days that have light uppers, an 8-10 second interval will guarantee the last jumpers will have to do a go-around or an off landing.

I usually discuss flying style and exit order with the people around me on the plane. I always ask the person/people ahead of me how much time they want. If I am not comfortable with the exit space, I let everyone know that I am going to wait longer or track perpendicular immediately out of the door for a thousand feet or so.

[kallend 2,028]

Quote

Quote

The 45 degree angle system DOES NOT WORK!!! Do not rely on this method for exit separation.

Care to elborate? I don't think the time based system works because of the upper winds. Maybe a combination of the two is ideal. But if I simple count to five and exit, I'm not taking into consideration that the uppers may be hauling ass and I'll fall right on top of the group in front of me.

Click here for explanation and look under "Resources"

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Clownburner 0]

I've heard that 45-degree-angle thing from a lot of jumpers at my DZ. I was taught to wait at least as many seconds as half the upper wind speed, but no less than 5 or 6 seconds. That method seems to jive pretty well with the calculations Kallend has... Do you think this is a good method to use as a 'rule-of-thumb?'

7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez
"I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth

[Push 0]

I just came up with an example on why the 45 degree method does not work. In fact, I'm going to print it out and show it to some people at my DZ. Here it is.

You are in a C182. A 4-way exits. They ask for a cut. As they climb out the plane is moving maybe 55mph, just hovering above stall. The 4-way is gone and you don't bother with a powerup, you just look out the door. Ok, 45 degrees, you're good to go. Now, a little bit of math. The plane-4way-vertical triangle has one 45 degree angle and one 90 degree angle. Therefore, the vertical distance the 4-way travelled from the plane is the same as the distance the plane travelled since their exit. The plane is going at 55mph, or 88.5 km/h = 24.6 m/s. How fast will freefallers reach 55mph downwards? 5 seconds? Does 125 meters sound like adequate separation from a 4-way?

EDITED TO ADD: I forgot to explain this: when the 45 degree thing happens, the average speed of the plane is the same as the average speed of the jumpers (distance travelled over time spent). The average speed of the plane is just 55mph. The average speed of the jumpers is small at first, but grows very quickly. Their average speed will reach 55mph very quickly.

The point is, in the situation where you want a longer exit separation, the 45 degree thing will give you less separation. Not only does it seem not to work, it does the opposite from what you want!

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[kyros1 0]

Good seperation is the key.

[billvon 3,008]

> I was taught to wait at least as many seconds as half the upper
>wind speed, but no less than 5 or 6 seconds.

That's quite conservative. A 40kt upper wind cuts your ground speed in half, so you'd have to wait twice as long, or at least 12 seconds. That would give you around 1000 feet separation, which is a good minimum. Under the scheme you mention above, you'd have to wait 20 seconds. This would be perfectly safe. Might string the exits out but they can always go around.

The problem is ground speed. You have to give the group behind you at LEAST 1000 feet (assuming 3 and 4 ways; solos need less and big ways need more.) You cover that 1000 feet more slowly when there are strong headwinds. So at zero winds, the 6 second thing works. At 80kts upper winds, there is NO safe separation; the plane isn't moving over the ground. It's hard to come up with a very simple scheme to take all that into account, but the rule of thumb that you have to wait longer with higher headwinds always holds.

[freakydiver 0]

Timed seperation based on uppers as well as planned exit groupings is what you use to keep other jumpers in other groups far enough away from you so that you rarely see them. The 45 degree angle trick is a myth and has been shown to be as such by many a DZ.commer much smarter than I. If you don't understand how to adjust counting seperation read up on it as it could very well save your life.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[KATO33 0]

Seems to me that if you don't see other jumpers then your airspace is clear(which s a good thing). Do I have this wrong?

Blue Skies Black Death

[dmitry26 0]

You are right, I don't see them because they are not there but how I can tell if don't see them.

Jumping solo I always leave first, so I had no chance to watch another people leaving in front of me (group jump is different story and at my level I am allowed to jump only with instructor).

Thanks a lot to everyone. I've got the idea, horizontal separation is the key.

Be safe, have fun.

[freakydiver 0]

Not necessarily - it might mean you aren't looking in the right places.

" horizontal separation is the key. "

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --