How to tell someone that they are downsizing too fast

[redheadskydiver 0]

Hey everyone,

I have a question. How do you tell someone you love that you think they are downsizing too fast when they won't listen to you because they think you're just a worry wart?

I don't want to give too many specifics but they have about 250 jumps on a Spectre 170 (wingloading 1.18), about 20 jumps on a nine-cell eliptical zp in the 150 range (wingloading 1.37) that I've watched them biff landings on more than once already. And now they want to jump something around a 130 (wingloading 1.56). Last time they jumped the 130 they landed off and had to downwind it. They're still hurting 3 days later from the landing but they think because they survived the downwind landing, that's the worst that can happen.

They also don't have health insurance and I'm afraid they're working their way to getting seriously injured. Is there anything I can do or say to make them see this or do I just have to let them go and learn the hard way? I'm afraid if I ask someone else to talk to them about it that they'll get mad at me.

But I don't think they listen to my opinion because I have almost 350 jumps am very conservative, have never downsized from my first rig (a sabre2 190 wingload 1.1-1.2). I also freely admit that the canopy ride still scares me, especially landing, and I'm still working on standing up my landings every single time, especially in no winds.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,
redheadskydiver

[andy2 0]

I dont know how many jumps you have, but if you are less experienced than him, why not go in private to one of the more experienced people at your DZ that shows he/she cares about people, and explain your situation. Maybe the more experienced dude/dudette will have better luck talking to this guy.

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[Ron 10]

Take him to

Here

And show him that a large number of people with 300 jumps and a 1.5 Wingload are dead...And they all thought they could handle it.

Several more are hurt..some to the point of never jumping again.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[payback462 0]

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I also freely admit that the canopy ride still scares me

not to be rude or anything, but if the canopy ride seriously scares you, then maybe you shouldnt be jumping your current canopy

[wmw999 2,452]

Instead of telling him (you're probably right, he's deaf to that input from you), you might want to see if you can get him to take a canopy class before downsizing; consider it like learning to drive performance cars before buying one, "so that he can get the best from it."

You might even offer to split the cost with him.

That way he'll at the very least have information. At Deland, there's probably plenty of classes available.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[redheadskydiver 0]

Well, I didn't mean it that I'm freaking out on every jump. I just mean I'm a conservative pilot, I do straight in approaches, I have no interest in learning to swoop. And, yes, I get a huge rush and my heart races every time I land. I think a little bit of fear is a good thing because it keeps you honest. I was just trying to point out why the other person doesn't listen to my opinion.

redheadskydiver

[diverdriver 5]

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Well, I didn't mean it that I'm freaking out on every jump. I just mean I'm a conservative pilot, I do straight in approaches, I have no interest in learning to swoop. And, yes, I get a huge rush and my heart races every time I land. I think a little bit of fear is a good thing because it keeps you honest. I was just trying to point out why the other person doesn't listen to my opinion.

redheadskydiver

Talk to your S&TA. That's what they are there for. Safety and Training Advisor.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[sducoach 0]

Okay Chris, it's payback time, go ahead, take your shot.

Talk to Paxton at the DZ. Tell him you are a friend of mine and what your concerns are. He will give you a hand and is a great guy too. Tell him he still owes me those coach jumps.......

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[skybytch 273]

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I think a little bit of fear is a good thing because it keeps you honest.

I kinda thought that too when I was jumping a Safire loaded at about 1.2. Even though I biffed nearly every landing I was SURE that I could figure it out.

One major back surgery and a year out of the sport later now I'm flying a Spectre loaded at 1.0-1.1. I stand up 95% of my landings, and the non stand ups are not spectacular. I make way more jumps now than I did when I had the Safire... because I'm not scared of my canopy anymore.

[ThighMan 5]

The S&TA is a good bet, but find out who this person looks to for advice or maybe a mentor. It can save there life. I wish you good luck.

Airborne
Blue Skies, No Wind
Feet and Knees Together

[billvon 2,998]

The only thing that's ever worked for me is to give them goals, then let _them_ decide they can't handle the canopy. Ask him if he can turn his canopy 90 degrees at 50 feet and still land safely. And if he can't? Then he's as good as dead if anyone ever cuts him off. Ask him if he can turn his canopy 45 degrees in the flare. If he can't? He may just seriously injure that 5 year old who's running out to see his dad land under a tandem.

He may claim those things are too dangerous to do on his present canopy. That's a start; they recognize they're loading the canopy really heavily. The next step is to convince him to jump a canopy where those things _can_ be learned safely; then he can downsize and learn them on the smaller canopy as well.

I've made up a list of about a dozen things you should be able to do under your current canopy. Do a search and you'll find the list.

[Ron 10]

Ask him to land in the peas 5 times in a row...If he can't do it..Then ask him if he really can fly that canopy.

Just because he didn't die or stood them up does not mean that he can fly that canopy.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[BMFin 0]

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Ask him to land in the peas 5 times in a row...If he can't do it..Then ask him if he really can fly that canopy.

Just because he didn't die or stood them up does not mean that he can fly that canopy.

I disagree...

I dont think accuracy on certain canopy makes you qualified to jump the canopy. Its also how you can fly and land the canopy that counts.

Sure accuracy is a very important aspect, but if he cant land the thing in the peas, I dont think he can land the bigger one either...

[andy2 0]

I think from my limited experience, usually the people that have a firm grasp of accuracy are the people that have a firm grasp of landing the canopy, etc. It works the other way around too, I think. The ones that can never land on target are usually the ones crashing in their landings. At least thats what I've seen so far

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[BMFin 0]

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I think from my limited experience, usually the people that have a firm grasp of accuracy are the people that have a firm grasp of landing the canopy, etc. It works the other way around too, I think. The ones that can never land on target are usually the ones crashing in their landings. At least thats what I've seen so far

Maby so, but if for example I was given a xaos 88, Im pretty sure I could land it fairly accurate, but Im sure I might have some trouble landing it safely..

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I think from my limited experience, usually the people that have a firm grasp of accuracy are the people that have a firm grasp of landing the canopy, etc. It works the other way around too, I think. The ones that can never land on target are usually the ones crashing in their landings. At least thats what I've seen so far

Being able to accurately fly your canopy is a sign of showing good canopy control. But just putting a canopy down in the peas doesn't mean you're a good canopy pilot if can can't manage all the other aspects of canopy flight.

Since there are many aspects of canopy flight, they all must be addressed as a package instead of focusing on one aspect. Being able to fly your canopy in a variety of conditions (for example: wind and traffic) and having the ability to consistently land you canopy in a safe area demonstrates good canopy control, but it doesn't mean anything if you don't know how to safely land the canopy. And visa-versa, knowing how to land a canopy won't help you if you're constantly putting down in a dangerous area. Canopy pilots of all abilities must be able to judge the wind and traffic conditions, must be able to execute flat turns, and must be able to handle landing upwind, crosswind and yes downwind (you know the BillVon criteria of canopy control). But do they need to demonstrate a Pro rating before they are allowed to fly another canopy? Hmmm ... sounds like someone is asking for a perfect world here which they aren't going to get.

If you see a low timer doing low toggle turns, then someone needs to talk to them. If a lesser experienced canopy pilots wants to learn high performance canopy flight, then get them to start making straight in front riser approaches. Once they get good at that aspect, introduce them to 90 degree front riser turns (making sure they know what a recovery arc is and what sort of recovery arc their canopy requires). Then they can start working their way into 180 (or larger) front riser carving turns all the while stressing to them to always have an out and to know how their canopy will perform in the different conditions. If you can understand where I'm coming from here, I'm trying to stress education. Instead of slamming someone because you feel that they're not ready for a certain canopy (which they may or may not be ready for), try to educate them on how to fly their canopy.

PS: I am just a newbie myself. But I have been educated and now that the class has been dismissed for recess, I'm off in the playground trying to dial in what has been told to me by the more experienced. So instead of tagging an arbitrary jump number which may or may not work for some, we need to educate each other and when we see our friends acting dangerously, we need to tell them that we're concerned. But ultimately if they want to play with fire, they will play with fire. Anyone can be killed on any canopy if that canopy is not flown appropriately.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[quade 4]

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How do you tell someone you love that you think they are downsizing too fast when they won't listen to you because they think you're just a worry wart?

I heard this one from an S&TA and thought it was pretty funny.

When the S&TA saw somebody he thought was being a little too aggressive, he'd take them aside and give them a form to fill out, he'd have them fill out the name, address, next of kin type of stuff.

Kind of sounds like a waiver but it wasn't.

He'd tell them he was just too freekin' busy to keep having to fill these out so if the skydiver wouldn't mind, he'd have them fill it in now and he'd just keep it on file.

He'd make sure the skydiver knew it was a fatality report.

Now, I'm not too sure if that was the most tactful way of doing it, or even the most effective, but it sure sounded funny!

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[sducoach 0]

I'm gonna steal that!!!!

Copy machine get ready, here I come!!!!

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[D22369 0]

[
I heard this one from an S&TA and thought it was pretty funny.

When the S&TA saw somebody he thought was being a little too aggressive, he'd take them aside and give them a form to fill out, he'd have them fill out the name, address, next of kin type of stuff.

Kind of sounds like a waiver but it wasn't.

He'd tell them he was just too freekin' busy to keep having to fill these out so if the skydiver wouldn't mind, he'd have them fill it in now and he'd just keep it on file.

He'd make sure the skydiver knew it was a fatality report

Now, I'm not too sure if that was the most tactful way of doing it, or even the most effective, but it sure sounded funny!

[Ron 10]

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I dont think accuracy on certain canopy makes you qualified to jump the canopy. Its also how you can fly
and land the canopy that counts.

If he can't land it where he wants...then he can't fly that canopy well now can he?

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Sure accuracy is a very important aspect, but if he cant land the thing in the peas, I dont think he can land
the bigger one either...

then maybe he should be jumping the bigger one till he can huh?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[HRHSkyPrincess 0]

Sadly, there are some folks who just won't take any advice from anyone. They think they know what's best for them regardless. Filling out the Fatality Report in advance may be a wake-up call for most, but I have actually had contact with a person who refuses to take the good advice of her ST&A, DZO, and every single JM around her. Her ego has clouded her judgment and she may pay the ultimate price. And as one person stated in another thread, 'you can do everything right and still die'...so, why wouldn't you want to do everything right, take the excellent advice, and get the odds in your favor? This is some incredible FUN we're having in the skies!! :)

*****************
Attitude is everything!

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

Sadly, there are some folks who just won't take any advice from anyone. They think they know what's best for them regardless. Filling out the Fatality Report in advance may be a wake-up call for most, but I have actually had contact with a person who refuses to take the good advice of her ST&A, DZO, and every single JM around her. Her ego has clouded her judgment and she may pay the ultimate price. And as one person stated in another thread, 'you can do everything right and still die'...so, why wouldn't you want to do everything right, take the excellent advice, and get the odds in your favor? This is some incredible FUN we're having in the skies!! :)

I skydive. Most of my friends and co-workers think that I'm crazy for exposing myself to risks that they would not. I am more risk tolerant than they are.

Many skydivers are more risk tolerant than I am. I do not choose to fly a very small canopy, I don't do hook turns, and I don't BASE jump because all of these are beyond my comfort level for risk. I've done my 2 night jumps for the "D" but don't intend to do any more - once again, the additional risk is not worth the additional reward in my opinion.

If your friend (or anyone else) wishes to take a risk that you consider unacceptable, I really don't see that it is any business of yours (or Ron's, or Derek's, or Bill's, or Chris's.....). Skydiving IS a risky endeavor for all of us; who are we to criticize those whose risk tolerance is higher than our own?

The pioneers of skydiving 30+ years ago took many risks that we don't take now. Their fatality rate was way higher than ours is in 2003 even with the low turns added in. We don't criticize them, we put them on pedestals and write articles about them and how wonderful it was in the "golden age".

I believe the responsibility the community has to its less experienced members is to make sure that they understand the risk and receive appropriate education and training. We should not be in the business of telling them which risks are unacceptable for them based on our beliefs.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[quade 4]

Do you think the average person objectively thinks more about a risk/benefit analysis system or just kind of "goes for it" based on how "cool" something is perceived to be.

I'm guessing most people just "go for it".

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[HRHSkyPrincess 0]

You're response is correct IF that person is not jumping with or landing near anyone else. They DON'T have the right to take someone else out due to their own stupidity/ego and failure to heed expert advice. Yes, accidents happen. Duh. So why not minimize the risk to others (you know, keep it to yourself)?

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Attitude is everything!

[JamesNahikian 0]

I'm guessing most people just "go for it".
_____________________________________________________

I doubt whether a new BSR or additional canopy training requirement will change that attitude in a meaningful way.

D. James Nahikian
CHICAGO