matttrudeau 0 #1 July 2, 2003 Yesterday a friend of mine had his first cutaway. He's a videographer with around 1,050 jumps. He opened up and his Jedei 105 and it began to surge to the right. In the video you can see tension knots in the right steering lines. He realeased both toggles but it maded the knots even tighter. There's a small chance he could have landed it but I think he made the right decision and cut it. The spin was so hard, in the video right before he cutaway, you could see the left riser go in front of the camera and then to the right and disappear. He told me later on the ground that when he packed it, he didn't flake the lines. He's also been a packer for a long time and he thought everything would be fine. So he just rolled it up and went with it. There's the problem. Complacency! So he learned his lesson and hopefully a lot of other people did as well. He's thankful now that he practices emergency procedures on every jump. Major beer! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyIvan 0 #2 July 2, 2003 Another lesson...and beer.__________________________________________ Blue Skies and May the Force be with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #3 July 2, 2003 This is what can happen also if you dont take away the twists from the steering lines. A lot of people think, that no twists can occure if the brakes are stowed back right after landing. They dont realise that even then they can make a 1-1/2 twist to the lines . After some time there can be some serious twists in the steering lines. I try to check my brakes every 5th jump or so... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #4 July 2, 2003 I do this at least once a day when jumping and have not had a tension knot for 10 years. (Knocking on wood at this time) Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matttrudeau 0 #5 July 2, 2003 He probably had some twists in there as well. I'll have to ask him how often he checks the steering lines. A good reminder to do that every ten jumps or so, depending on your landings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 0 #6 July 2, 2003 The other week when I was jumping out at Greensburg, IN I had a large tension knot due to line twist in my left brake line. When I pulled my toggles to release my brakes the excess brakeline spun up into a knot at the ring, luckily it actually released when I gave it a hard yank. I knew my lines were twisted when I packed but was in a hurry and told myself next packjob i'dtake care of it, D'OH! Learned my lesson. ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blahr 0 #7 July 2, 2003 Quote This seems kind of funny to me. Not to do it, but to NOT do it every time. I learned to pack 10 years ago and was taught to do this EVERY time I packed and have always followed that procedure. It seems odd to me that one would only do it once per day or every couple days. Especially since it only takes 30 seconds. Granted, I was taught to flat pack. This is probably a bigger pain in the ass when pro packing. I have been away from it for 8 years and will be starting again in Sept. I plan to learn how to pro pack but I still intend to do this every time. Why the hell not? I might loose a couple minutes by doing it every time but thats better than loosing the rest of the day because I had to chop. ; ; ; Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #8 July 3, 2003 Hey, great. Do it every time if you want! I watch my lines and notice when they are starting to twist up and take care of it then. When I land one of the first things I do is stow the brakes. This tends to reduce the twist when you are jumping several times a day. Watch those students who come in dragging a toggle, pick up the rig when they drop it and notice how much twist they have! What we do not realize some times is that everytime we stow the brakes we have the opportunity to put a half twist in the line simply by which side of the loop you place the toggle through. It's kind of like brushing your teeth. Three times a day is recommended, but six times is great! Keep it up! Glad you're back too!!! From an old flat/side packer to another!!! Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Genn 0 #9 July 3, 2003 I think too much emphasis has been put on twisted control lines. There ARE other ways to get a tension knot on any line group. While packing and making your stows, make sure all the "slack" in your lines are brought up to the top by the canopy and Not to the bottom, by the bag. Any excess line by uneven stows can cause a 'loop' where another line can get caught in. When a line(s) gets caught in a 'loop', this is often referred to as "pigtailing"....which will cause a tension knot. My .02 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #10 July 3, 2003 QuoteI think too much emphasis has been put on twisted control lines. There ARE other ways to get a tension knot on any line group. While packing and making your stows, make sure all the "slack" in your lines are brought up to the top by the canopy and Not to the bottom, by the bag. Any excess line by uneven stows can cause a 'loop' where another line can get caught in. When a line(s) gets caught in a 'loop', this is often referred to as "pigtailing"....which will cause a tension knot. My .02 At the Safety Expo at SDC last March one of the test jumpers from PD gave a packng demo (sorry, don't recall his name). He recommended strongly against taking the slack to the top by the canopy, and said you should try to distribute it uniformly along the length of the lines.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #11 July 3, 2003 QuoteAt the Safety Expo at SDC last March one of the test jumpers from PD gave a packng demo (sorry, don't recall his name). He recommended strongly against taking the slack to the top by the canopy, and said you should try to distribute it uniformly along the length of the lines. Interesting. ...Did he say what the possible concerns/ramifications might be when doing this? Line "whip" (and thereby increased shock-load) at the canopy attachment point(s) perhaps? It seems if you ever just observe probably 9/10's of the packers out there, that one of the last operations, just before beginning your line stows on the bag, is the packer indeed "MILKING" the line slack back UP into the cocooned canopy! Hmmmm.....coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Genn 0 #12 July 3, 2003 QuoteAt the Safety Expo at SDC last March one of the test jumpers from PD gave a packng demo (sorry, don't recall his name). He recommended strongly against taking the slack to the top by the canopy, and said you should try to distribute it uniformly along the length of the lines. My information was from Nancy LaRiviere who was/is? the general manager of Jump Shack. In 1997 her credentials were: Tandem JM/IE 4000+ jumps...and in an interview she showed exactly how they can happen. She was also part of R&D for a malfunction video where they showed actual demonstrations of the tension knot malfunction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #13 July 3, 2003 QuoteQuoteAt the Safety Expo at SDC last March one of the test jumpers from PD gave a packng demo (sorry, don't recall his name). He recommended strongly against taking the slack to the top by the canopy, and said you should try to distribute it uniformly along the length of the lines. Interesting. ...Did he say what the possible concerns/ramifications might be when doing this? Line "whip" (and thereby increased shock-load) at the canopy attachment point(s) perhaps? It seems if you ever just observe probably 9/10's of the packers out there, that one of the last operations, just before beginning your line stows on the bag, is the packer indeed "MILKING" the line slack back UP into the cocooned canopy! Hmmmm..... yes - he said it has a tendency to disturb the slider and allow it to come away from the stops..... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #14 July 3, 2003 QuoteQuoteAt the Safety Expo at SDC last March one of the test jumpers from PD gave a packng demo (sorry, don't recall his name). He recommended strongly against taking the slack to the top by the canopy, and said you should try to distribute it uniformly along the length of the lines. My information was from Nancy LaRiviere who was/is? the general manager of Jump Shack. In 1997 her credentials were: Tandem JM/IE 4000+ jumps...and in an interview she showed exactly how they can happen. She was also part of R&D for a malfunction video where they showed actual demonstrations of the tension knot malfunction. Well, this guy probably didn't know anything, he just works for PD as a test jumper.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Genn 0 #15 July 3, 2003 QuoteWell, this guy probably didn't know anything, he just works for PD as a test jumper. That's funny...cause I believe it was Billy Webber who was doing the intentional cutaways for the tension knot demonstrations....and as of 2 years ago he told me he had over 750 intentional cutaways. hummmm. Edit: Billy Webber was also a test jumper for PD at one time. Don't know if he is anymore though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #16 July 3, 2003 QuoteThat's funny...cause I believe it was Billy Webber who was doing the intentional cutaways for the tension knot demonstrations....and as of 2 years ago he told me he had over 750 intentional cutaways. hummmm. Who would EVER listen to anybody with just that much EXPERIENCE behind him anyway? ...What I'd like to know is if (whether) he has his COACHES RATING or not!coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Genn 0 #17 July 3, 2003 QuoteWho would EVER listen to anybody with just that much EXPERIENCE behind him anyway? yea, I must be..the guy only has over 10,000 jumps and almost 1000 intentional cutaways...what the hell was I thinking?? But, hey...maybe things have changed....I haven't seen or spoken to him in 2 years...the last time he was at The Ranch.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lippy 918 #18 July 3, 2003 When I laid my canopy down for the cigar roll, I used to 'milk' excess line under the tail. I had a chop due to tension knots and was told by a master rigger that it was very possible that this was the cause. Now I'm just a little more carefull about getting the lines straight and orderly before I lay it down, and a little less picky about the line stows looking perfect.I got nuthin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #19 July 3, 2003 QuoteWhen I laid my canopy down for the cigar roll, I used to 'milk' excess line under the tail. I had a chop due to tension knots and was told by a master rigger that it was very possible that this was the cause. Now I'm just a little more carefull about getting the lines straight and orderly before I lay it down, and a little less picky about the line stows looking perfect. What would he know? If he didn't have over 10,000 jumps he was wrong.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #20 July 3, 2003 Check with the canopy manufactures and you will find most tell you not to pull your slack to the canopy or bag. Pig tails are loops caused by slack line and twist when the twist catches another object, i.e. lines, canopy, before knotting up. Do what ever trips your trigger but, never quit learning Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #21 July 3, 2003 Kallend, Jealousy is such an ugly animal........... When we grow up I hope we can be just like them................. Blues Brother, Gone for the weekend. Be safe. J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
