Passenger Ripcord on Tandem Jumps

[skydiverek 63]

Why so few Tandem Masters install the second drouge release so that it is accesible to the passenger (like on passenger's harness/shoulder)?. It seems to me that it would be more accessible to Tandem Master, and also make a tandem jump safer - I read about two "passenger saves", where a passenger pulled the drouge release and this action saved the pair's life.

I think that some TM do not want to give anything to passengers, but in this case, even if the passenger pulls the drouge release too early (panicking, for instance) it will only change the drouge into throw out PC, or make for a high opening, so it does not seem to make the situation more dangerous.

Any comments???

[crouska 0]

Passenger opening the chute too early can make for a nasty off dropzone landing if the winds were getting up there. There are times I spot over a mile away based on opening at 5000. If i am open at 10,000, I would need to spot 2 miles away. There is now a good chance to land up to a mile off the DZ due to being open too early. Do I believe in providing the student w/ a drogue release? YES. It's all in the training.

If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space!

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I have a LOT of tandem jumps. Lucky for me, most of my current tandem mains are Sigmas. That said, if a student wants to go through all the Cat A criteria, then I have no problem letting him do PRCP's and then pulling. On a Sigma, you show them the right side drpgue relaase. At the same time they are going in for the passenger release, you are putting your left hand on the auxilliary release. No big deal at all.

chuck

[poohbeer 0]

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There are times I spot over a mile away based on opening at 5000. If i am open at 10,000, I would need to spot 2 miles away.

Euhhm.. why don't you simply cirkel around at a mile away until you are at 5000 feet then?

------- SIGNATURE BELOW -------
Complete newbie at skydiving, so be critical about what I say!!
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

[phoenixlpr 0]

Just one question: How can a passanger decide when to pull? No alimeter, no experience....

Safe landings.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

what do you mean "no altimeter?" I put an altimeter on pretty much all my passengers and will generally ask them if they want to pull. If they do, I brief them just like I would a Cat A AFF student. On a Sigma there is no handle to lose and the right side drogue release is in about the same position a BOC handle is on a student rig from the front, passenger, location. Some people don't want to pull, some do. Some want a nice stable exit, some want to "do tricks."

Chuck

[poohbeer 0]

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Some want a nice stable exit, some want to "do tricks."

Is that at all possible? Doing tricks on exit? I though (assumed) that a TM needed to get stable belly to ground to release the drogue?
GRMBL, otherwise I've been cheated out one more frontflip on mytandemjump

------- SIGNATURE BELOW -------
Complete newbie at skydiving, so be critical about what I say!!
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

[Ron 10]

Quote

Euhhm.. why don't you simply cirkel around at a mile away until you are at 5000 feet then?

If the winds are pushing hard enough you will be backing up under canopy...If you put your side or back to the wind...You will be blown away from the spot MUCH faster.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[freeflyfrog 0]

A tandem jump should never be considered simply a "joy ride" for the passenger (a title which itself makes it too easy to do just that). Granted, most people that make a tandem skydive may never make another jump again, but they must be trained with the same thoroughness as someone who WILL jump again.

ALL of my students receive an altimeter and a drogue release and I train them how to use them. I have only had one passenger release the drogue early (around 11000'). I blame myself for not catching them before they pulled the release. I am much more careful now.

As for "tricks" it all depends on the student. For their first tandem, I gently suggest that learning to make a controlled exit in a good arch is more important than doing flips. Most students agree with this, plus it gives them an incentive to make another jump. Also, I am a fairly small tandem instructor (5'8", 170lbs.) and I will not do intentional flips with first-time students that are much taller than myself or who have given me reason to believe that they will not arch well enough or quickly enough to get us on our bellies ASAP.

For the person who felt cheated when they didn't get to do flips on a tandem jump, get a hold of Strong Enterprise's side-spin phenomenon video and you will see why some instructors insist on no "tricks."

Tandem jumping is every bit as serious as AFF as a training method... let's not forget this.

[Ron 10]

As for the tricks...there is another post where I put my opinions on them...

I don't do them. A tandem termial reserve opening is not my idea of a good time.

While you are flipping you are most likley going past the 10 seconds or less to drouge toss advice. Going to T terminal just puts more wear on the gear, and just increases risks.

I give the student a ripcord and an Alti.
I ask if they want to pull, but most say no.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Liemberg 0]

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it will only change the drouge into throw out PC, or make for a high opening, so it does not seem to make the situation more dangerous.

Try jumping on an Island 4 km wide on a DZ 1,5 km from the shore....
(Or any other DZ where to high openings can put you in immediate danger...)

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[PhreeZone 20]

>drouge release too early (panicking, for instance) it will only change the drouge into throw out PC

Doing this on a Vector system before the drogue is thown is an out of sequence deployment and is the leading cause of tandem fatilities. The new Sigma set up prevents the drogue release from working until the drogue is thrown and inflated.

A tandem is not just another skydive...

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[vidiot 0]

Quote

>drouge release too early (panicking, for instance) it will only change the drouge into throw out PC

Doing this on a Vector system before the drogue is thown is an out of sequence deployment

Is it? Pulling the the release just opens the 3-ring release, the container stays closed. The drogue will immedialy release and probably collapse when thrown, but it will open the container in the correct sequence nevertheless.

I guess what you're referring to - and what is prevented by the Sigma - is the container somehow opening while the droge is not released.

My Logbook

[riggerrob 643]

At Pitt Meadows, we jump in highly restricted airspace and the air traffic controllers get offended when anyone opens above 5,000 feet.
They like to route airliners over our DZ at 6,000 feet and they are pretty good at reporting traffic and steering airliners around the DZ so we play by their rules.
So I clip the drogue release to the student's hip, but do not tell them about it.
Clipping the drogue release to the students' hip is more to satisfy my routine. My current routine has kept me alive for the last 2,000 tandems and I am too old, too lazy, too complacent to change my routine.
As for students saving my sorry a** ... I have far more faith in a Cypres. Knock on wood, but I did a thousand skydives before Cypri were invented and I have never scared a Cypres.

[CloudOnMyTongue 0]

When I did my first tandem, I told my JM that I wanted to do the AFF program. He asked me if I wanted to do flips and I said yes. He said that it would good for me to know what they feel like. My JM was really little to like 5'4".

[riggerrob 643]

Despite what Ted Strong believes, the vast majority of modern tandem students come out for a "carnival ride."
All that silly altitude awareness and ripcord pulling and performance anxiety reduces their enjoyment.

What is the point of "pounding" information into a student who does not want to learn?

[Cajones 0]

I'm not sure what Ted Strong believes. I agree that the vast majority of first time tandems are also "one time" tandems.

My goal is to give each one the thrill of skydiving, without all of the "what-ifs." I show them the gear during the briefing, including where the main, reserve, drogue, AAD, hooks/buckles and drogue release handles are located (along with some very basic specs). I make it a point to tell them that whatever happens to them - happens to me - and I've got plenty more skydives ahead of me, so nothing "bad" is going to happen to them. I also point out there is no "performance pressure" in this skydive; if they forget something, or don't do exactly what is asked of them - it's okay - their job is to have fun (if they don't do that, I kick 'em to the curb).

I always locate the student ripcord in its proper location. Routines save lives. I have a rather specific set of routines when it comes to tandem skydiving. I do not want to have to think about where a handle is located. With my routines, I always know where they are, and reinforce this wth handles checks on every tandem skydive.

I make it a point to take the students in a group who seem to be the most scared. I don't mind the extra effort it takes to put students at ease. I don't mind that they might go fetal on exit. Any student carries that potential. This is a completely new experience for them and no one (including them and myself) knows exactly how they will react. I am 6'3" and 220lbs, and I can outfly most anything a student throws at me. My physical size and strength are certainly an advantage in dealing with students who perform poorly.

I have had students deploy very high. Three out of four were students trained to deploy at 6,000 ft. They were disoriented on exit, or confused a signal such as an altimeter tap or PRCP assist with a deployment request. I discourage student pulls (as I agree with Rob that it creates performance anxiety and reduces enjoyment), except when the student is certain they are going to pursue skydiving further.

I see many TI's who spend lots of time reinforcing body position, rehearsing exits, etc. I tend to reinforce relaxation, and the very basics of body position, with the reassurance of a hip-tap if they forget to arch.

Students who are especially nervous and "special" students such as blind, deaf, and para/quads get a good dose of "yoga" for skydivers. Relaxation mainly through breathing excercises, and awareness relaxation through periphery exercises. It makes a huge difference in many cases - sometimes it doesn't seem to help at all (although they tell me it did).

The laws of physics are strictly enforced.

[bclark 0]

I give my tandem students an opportunity to pull the ripcord on every tandem. I explain to them that if they don't, I will, so it is OK. Even the students who say they don't want to pull usually do. We use Strong Dual Hawks, and have relocated the location of the passenger ripcord from the students harness to the top front of the instructors legpad (with Strong's approval of course.) We have also replaced the orange pvc handle with a ball. The idea is that it simulates the actual feel and location of a hand deploy p/c. We are training AFF students to hand deploy from their first AFF jump. Another nice feature is that it is much harder to snag the drogue release on an exit or have a student pull high with this configuration.

[John4455 0]

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For the person who felt cheated when they didn't get to do flips on a tandem jump, get a hold of Strong Enterprise's side-spin phenomenon video and you will see why some instructors insist on no "tricks."

Tandem jumping is every bit as serious as AFF as a training method... let's not forget this.

AMEN!
If there is a tandem I out there that has never seen this tape, let me know. It is a must see....

How do ya like it Johnny?