Landing order vs exit order (Was: Accident Synopsis)

[riddler 0]

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It's not a BSR, but it is in the SIM under the Category E training jump syllabus.

From this discussion, can we conclude that the exit order also determines the landing order?

In other words, I do about half freefly, half belly/RW jumps. We (my DZOs) are getting pretty good at figuring out how to get on and off the plane. Should we also apply that to landings - i.e. I exit after jumper X and before jumper Y, therefore, I should also land between jumper X and jumper Y?

Sorry Greenies - this might be a better topic for General Skydiving discussions. Feel free to move, if so! Thanks.

[Ron 10]

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From this discussion, can we conclude that the exit order also determines the landing order?

Nope. Many times I land before the group in front of me.
(At Zhills the FF go first...another topic) And they break and pull higher than RW groups. At some point I pass by the altitude they are at under canopy.

And what about the big ways with people with big canopies?
Sometimes these people ride in brakes (Its their right). Even if I ride in brakes my ST107 of V96 will not hang with them. So I have to pass them.

So while it would be a good idea to have exit order transfer to landing order...With the large differences in canopies, and the differences in pull altitudes...It will not work.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[eeneR 3]

you forgot to factor in wingloading as well.....

She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway."
eeneR
TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto

[freakydiver 0]

Can't people just turn their heads while under canopy and use common sense?

Just a thought...

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[hookitt 1]

Exit order has some affect on landing order but it's certainly not first out first down under most circumstances.

Here's a simple scenario

Jumper *A* opens up 1/2 mile before the landing zone.
Jumper *B* opens right over the top.

While jumper *A* is flying back to the landing zone, Jumper *B* spirals down and lands first.

This is common.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[dreamsville 0]

Exit order may not necessarily determine landing order.

Most significant is probably not only wing-loadings but the fact that some jumpers may spiral to land sooner. While we frown upon that right over the main landing area, it's OK to pick an open area away from other jumpers, spiral down, and then enter the main pattern afterwards. It happens a lot and is safe when done correctly.

As far as SDC landing direction, we determine it by wind and then agree upon it and announce it before loading and again in the plane. We try to follow the earier landings but prefer people to follow the plan unless conditions prevent it. Choose a remote area if uncomfortable or unsure. If multiple aircraft are up, as last weekend, manifest will announce it as well. This is helpful when there is little wind. In a no-wind situation, the preferred landing direction is south, since the landing area opens up wider when approaching from the north,
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I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[kallend 2,028]

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In a no-wind situation, the preferred landing direction is south, since the landing area opens up wider when approaching from the north,
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I know that's what we do, but I'm not totally convinced of it's wisdom. Landing south tends to bring the canopies landing in the "hot dog" area through the narrowest portion at between 50 and 100ft altitude. Landing north would have them all on the ground by the time they reached the narrowest part. But, what do I know?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,008]

>From this discussion, can we conclude that the exit order also
>determines the landing order?

No. Many other things (like canopy loading) also determine who lands first.

[riddler 0]

I've heard that a swooping safety technique is to go to deep brakes and wait for everyone else to get down before initiating the swoop? If this is true, it would certainly effect landing order as well.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[billvon 3,008]

>I've heard that a swooping safety technique is to go to deep brakes
> and wait for everyone else to get down before initiating the swoop?

Another one is to spiral like crazy so you're the first one to land. Since I tend to pull lower than the average jumper at Perris I often use this.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Having clear airspace is important prior to initiating a hooked/carved turn for your swoop. But unless I'm mistaken, one of the huge reasons for sitting in breaks prior to initiating your turn is to allow yourself (the swooper) to setup at the appropriate altitude for your canopy (and it's recovery arcs) for the type of turn you are about to start.

As far as landing orders are concerned, it's my understanding that this is a very dynamic topic dependent on the type of jump (freefly versus RW as an example), pull altitudes, snivels, spots, wingloading and how could we not forget the desire by some to get down fast or get down last. Knowing the DZs landing preferences as well as keeping your head on a swivel seem to be the only way to survive up there.

Of course if I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me and some will flame me.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[riddler 0]

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No. Many other things (like canopy loading) also determine who lands first.

Then can I safely conclude that freefall styles, whether belly flying large groups, head-down freeflying, or wingsuit flying have nothing to do with landing order?

As a soon to be coach (I hope), would it not be wise to tell my students that just because we have setup the order in this particular way does not mean that you should have expectations about where other canopies will be in the sky?

From the previous discussion, it seems that some jumpers feel this is the case.

[billvon 3,008]

>And can I also conclude that freefall styles, whether belly flying large
> groups, head-down freeflying, or wingsuit flying have nothing to do
> with landing order?

Uh, they all have a lot to do with it. Opening altitude, freefall speed, canopy size, spot, pass, wingsuit flyers, snivel lengths all factor into it.

> . . .does not mean that you should have expectations about
>where other canopies will be in the sky?

I would tell them never to have _any_ expectations about where other canopies will be. Fly as if someone is trying to sneak up on you and kill you.

[PhillyKev 0]

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Fly as if someone is trying to sneak up on you and kill you.

I'm going to have that line in my head on my next jump and laugh my ass off.

• Quote

[Genn 0]

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I would tell them never to have _any_ expectations about where other canopies will be. Fly as if someone is trying to sneak up on you and kill you.

LOL...almost every time I open after a FF jump...there's a canopy on my ass and it's one of my friends trying to kill me...lol...they get me before I can even unstow my toggles or stow my slider...

Anyway...my .02

I try to hold in brakes to let the group before me land therefore having a less congested landing area. But it doesn't always work cause of the rate of descent. But I still try.

[riddler 0]

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Uh, they all have a lot to do with it. Opening altitude, freefall speed, canopy size, spot, pass, wingsuit flyers, snivel lengths all factor into it.

I think that free-fall styles would make a difference in landings if everyone had the same wingload, canopy type, opening altitude and didn't exercise any control of their canopy. But that isn't reality.

I'm not a great canopy pilot (yet ), but personally, once I'm under canopy, I feel like I can exercise enough control to change my landing time by perhaps as much as a full minute, and select my landing location for up to a mile in any direction. So can most other pilots. I can certainly spend time in the air, and on the ground watching for other canopies.

If you agree with that, then does our style of freefall really effect where and when we land? Does it make it significantly more dangerous to land if I'm on a plane with belly fliers, freeflyers, students, tandems and wingsuits? Is it safer to land when I'm on a plane with only other freefliers or only with other belly fliers? I don't think it is. That's really the only point I'm asserting.

[riddler 0]

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Fly as if someone is trying to sneak up on you and kill you.

I like this one too. I usually tell people that flying a canopy is like driving in a parking lot full of frustrated shoppers. They come out of everywhere at high speed and always seem to be aiming right for you. You have to keep your head on a swivel.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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does our style of freefall really effect where and when we land? Does it make it significantly more dangerous to land if I'm on a plane with belly fliers, freeflyers, students, tandems and wingsuits? Is it safer to land when I'm on a plane with only other freefliers or only with other belly fliers? I don't think it is. That's really the only point I'm asserting.

Being predominately a freeflier, I'm not worried about the RW people who exit before me as a freefall collision with an RWer isn't an issue. And as long as I keep my eyes open, landings usually aren't an issue as well as I often (not always) get a better spot and can be on the ground before the RWers are (assuming an RWer isn't flying a highly loaded pocket rocket). I am however somewhat leary about the AFF instructors and/or so call high belly pullers who tend to jump after the freefliers and drift more horizontally. If the AFF Instructor and/or high belly puller don't cutaway, then there is little for me to fear as there is plenty of vertical seperation. But if the said jumper does need to cutaway, the risk of them falling into my canopy while they wait for their reserve is raised.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[freeflybella 0]

Doesn't it make sense to behave in the air under canopy just as you would in the air during a freefall big-way?

Know who is on your jump, watch for radical movements, know where everyone is before breakoff, continue to check your airspace as you initiate deployment, barrel roll or wave off to give a clear signal to others' as to your intentions and be ready to avoid collisions during deployment.

I.e., know who is on your load (keep a mental note of their canopy piloting behaviour and skill over time), look for those people under canopy and get better at finding them exactly where you thought they'd be, be as predictable as you can be, continue to check your airspace and be ready to avoid collision during all stages of your approach and landing.

>>Fly as if someone is trying to sneak up and kill you<<

...seems like the only attitude to have.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[dreamsville 0]

Quote:/ In a no-wind situation, the preferred landing direction is south, since the landing area opens up wider when approaching from the north,
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I know that's what we do, but I'm not totally convinced of it's wisdom. Landing south tends to bring the canopies landing in the "hot dog" area through the narrowest portion at between 50 and 100ft altitude. Landing north would have them all on the ground by the time they reached the narrowest part. But, what do I know?
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John, although it's true that the landing area opens up, as I said, towards the south, there is some wisdom for staying clear and turning sooner (north to south) to avoid the hot dog area. In busier times, your point is well taken.
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I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[sducoach 0]

Exit order and landing order have nothing to do with each other. To many variables.

Exit order is for separation during freefall and during canopy openings.

Landing order has to do with canopy traffic and all the other variables you listed plus many others.

"if you don't know the answer, baffle them with BS"

James 4:8

[riggerrob 643]

>>Fly as if someone is trying to sneak up and kill you<<

...seems like the only attitude to have.

[diverdriver 5]

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So while it would be a good idea to have exit order transfer to landing order...With the large differences in canopies, and the differences in pull altitudes...It will not work.

Exactly! And that's why everyone has to keep their head on a swivel ALL THE TIME. You (not you Ron) can't assume that everyone will be landing from the same direction. No matter what their reasoning is for doing it dead is dead. You can't go back and argue why they didn't look around.

Look left, right, up, down, front, back, repeat.......

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[diverdriver 5]

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I know that's what we do, but I'm not totally convinced of it's wisdom. Landing south tends to bring the canopies landing in the "hot dog" area through the narrowest portion at between 50 and 100ft altitude. Landing north would have them all on the ground by the time they reached the narrowest part. But, what do I know?

Because we watched people landing north on the no-wind days overshooting into the aircraft landing, taxi, and ramp area. It is unsafe. We must set a landing pattern to the south when there are no winds. There is plenty of airspace to land south.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[Squeak 17]

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>>Fly as if someone is trying to sneak up and kill you<<

...seems like the only attitude to have.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I fly my canopy the same way I ride a motorcycle: paranoid.
I expect others to drive/fly like idiots and am rarely disappointed.